The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 25, 2014, 03:53 PM   #26
Senior Member
Join Date: February 9, 2007
Posts: 3,091
Is .22 Long Rifle still around?
Chris_B is offline  
Old February 25, 2014, 05:56 PM   #27
Corrections Cop
Senior Member
Join Date: September 21, 2012
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 390

.30 Cal Auto Loader
Corrections Cop is offline  
Old February 25, 2014, 06:01 PM   #28
David spargenator
Senior Member
Join Date: December 7, 2013
Posts: 131
What about like real rifle rounds. Like 223, 243. In a concealable pistol design. Like a glock. I think if a manufacturer made something like that they'd sell a lot.
David spargenator is offline  
Old February 25, 2014, 06:06 PM   #29
Senior Member
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 3,574
im sure if a company could figure out how to fit a 223 or 243 into the grip of a glock they'd sell a crap ton.
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that.
I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug
Venom1956 is offline  
Old February 25, 2014, 07:35 PM   #30
Senior Member
Join Date: July 5, 2002
Location: Ga
Posts: 515

AK-47 based pistol.


Pico is offline  
Old February 25, 2014, 10:34 PM   #31
Unlicensed Dremel
Junior member
Join Date: February 13, 2014
Location: Flathead Valley, MT
Posts: 2,187
The .500 Linebaugh, .500 S&W and the .460 S&W come to mind.
"You'll blast your thumb off, kid."
Unlicensed Dremel is offline  
Old February 25, 2014, 11:13 PM   #32
tony pasley
Senior Member
Join Date: April 13, 2006
Location: western north carolina
Posts: 1,532
Rifle cals. in pistols has been around for a couple of hundred years the rifle cal came first the the pistol followed, .31,.36, .45, .50, .68 those are from the 1700's and late 1800's it was not uncommon for rifles and pistols to be the same cal.
'It has been said that politics is the
second oldest profession. I have learned
that it bears a striking resemblance
to the first.' - Ronald Reagan
tony pasley is offline  
Old February 25, 2014, 11:46 PM   #33
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2013
Location: Douglasville, Ga
Posts: 4,615
yeah, theres only so big you can go in the pistol grip and still be able to put your hand around it, try putting your hand around a box off 233 and add an inch for the grip(could YOU still pull the trigger?? doubt it)

also, you say that rifle rounds have so much more power, but a 223 out of a 4inch barrel would probably have similar velocity of a 357mag, but with a 55-75gr bullet
My head is bloody, but unbowed

Last edited by skizzums; February 25, 2014 at 11:51 PM.
skizzums is offline  
Old February 25, 2014, 11:51 PM   #34
Senior Member
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Posts: 249
i have a 458 lott pistol,
does that count
nanewt02 is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 02:57 AM   #35
Junior Member
Join Date: September 29, 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 3
BFR 45-70 from Magnum Research?
onegtalon is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 10:13 AM   #36
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 8,389
Unless you want to hand load for single shot pistols like the Contender, you have to wonder why a pistol in a rifle caliber? With commercial loads, you'll lose a ton of velocity due to unburnt powder. The unburnt powder and gas will increase recoil over pistol rounds with similar weight bullets and muzzle velocities. The terminal ballistics of most commercial rifle bullets will suffer because they are designed for higher velocities and will probably perform worse than comparable pistol bullets designed for pistol velocities.

I'll give you an example. M183 rounds (55 gr. FMJ) do their damage due to fragmentation which becomes very iffy below about 2600 fps. According to Ballistics by the Inch, a 55 gr. Rem. UMC .223 round achieved a muzzle velocity of 1564 fps out of four inch test barrel and 2983 fps out of an 18 inch test barrel. Thus, shooting this bullet from a four inch barreled handgun in a defensive situation will likely result in the bullet passing through the body of the bad guy (if it doesn't hit bone) and result in much less damage than if fired from a longer barrel. A Corbon 125 gr. +P JHP from a four inch test barrel traveled at 1226 fps and I guarantee it will do more damage than the .223 from a short barrel. As others have mentioned, there's also the problem of fitting rifle bullets in a grip frame of a pistol if you want a pistol that is really concealable or carry friendly.

Now, if you just want to blast some rounds off for the fun of it, that's a different story.
KyJim is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 02:38 PM   #37
Senior Member
Join Date: June 26, 2002
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 156
Big bore revolvers, loaded with heavyweight hard cast bullets, are a proven combination for hunters or others looking for handguns with the best chance of stopping dangerous animals. Look for 1980's articles by Ross Seyfried. Elmer Keith and ranchers have done similar for the big bulls and wild animals they deal with as well.

The 5" Coonan 357Magnum 1911 gets surprising results as well. Much better than we might expect.
John Northern CA
"Life brings sorrows and joys alike. It is what a man does with them - not what they do to him - that is the true test of his mettle." T. Roosevelt

Last edited by Poohgyrr; February 26, 2014 at 03:19 PM.
Poohgyrr is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 04:46 PM   #38
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2013
Location: SW IN
Posts: 313
There is some hand gun that shoots rifle caliber bullets! There is some revolvers shoots 45-70 It was made in Evansville to start with 30 cal Carbine and there are others like the Dan Wesson 375 revolver so there is a lot of them if you will look around.
Man that likes guns. Navy. USS Ponchatoula AO 148 USS Vesuvius AE 15
BWM is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 06:59 PM   #39
chris in va
Senior Member
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,534
The FN P90 was introduced in 1990. The Five-Seven pistol came out in 2000. The round was originally intended for use in the rifle and is a rifle round, albeit small.
chris in va is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 07:43 PM   #40
Senior Member
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,519
Originally Posted by David spargenator
What about like real rifle rounds. Like 223, 243. In a concealable pistol design. Like a glock. I think if a manufacturer made something like that they'd sell a lot.
How in the world are you going to fit a magazine of .223 or .243 rounds into a concealable pistol design? Grab an AR-15 magazine: That would have to fit inside the grip of a handgun chambered in .223. Nobody with regular human-sized hands would be able to hold this handgun with anything resembling a normal handgun grip. And the grip for a .243 would be even bigger; about the size of an AR-10 magazine.

Also, rifle rounds have much higher chamber pressures than handguns. A .223 makes as much as 55,000 PSI and a .243 makes as much as 60,000 PSI; compare that to a 9mm's 35,000 PSI. This means you're going to need the handgun to be bigger and heavier in order to handle the higher pressure; it would almost certainly have to be gas-operated like the Desert Eagle.

So now we have a handgun that's heavier and larger than a normal handgun, and has a grip that's too large for anyone to hold. And for what? With the short barrel our rifle rounds have lost a HUGE amount of velocity and are ridiculously loud. Rifles are designed to shoot a small-caliber bullet at very high velocities out of a long barrel. But when you shorten the barrel too much you lose a large percentage of the velocity that makes rifle rounds so effective out of a normal barrel.

Rifle rounds are too long and too powerful to fit in a concealable pistol design. And with the short barrel you'd loose too much of the velocity advantage anyway. There's a reason pistol rounds are designed the way they are.
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 08:23 PM   #41
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 1,085
Pistol sized pistol in a full-blown rifle chambering of the 223 class or higher. Seriously, the recoil would probably be enough to injure you (due to frequency if not amplitude). The blast wave would engulf your hand and burn your hairs. Even if there were some magical way it could be made strong enough, the grip would be at least 3" long, and the slide would travel about 4" or so. All this for marginally better performance, since rifle cartridges would be nearly as anemic as pistol rounds from pistol length barrels, only you'd get a ludicrous fireball in the process.

I'm not normally one for damning any type of gun as impractical, but this is even moreso than AR/AK pistols. The 30 Carbine AMT is probably the biggest you.could.possibly. make a pistol and have it be construed by anyone as a "pistol" rather than cut down rifle*

Yeah...that'll sell just like hotcakes (50BMG pistol)

The 5.7x28 really is more of a pistol round than a rifle round despite its design for the P90. Let me explain my reasoning;
1) P90 was designed as a PDW
2) PDW was defined as a stocked gun 'less than a rifle,' occupying a niche very similar to pistol caliber carbines (not SMGs)
3) With ammunition designed to be much more efficient (weight/volume) than most pistol cartridges like 9mm that are bulky due to their large calibers
4) And given select fire capability like that of SMGs simply because it is an easy and useful feature to add into guns designed in this modern era (lack of full-auto and low capacity were the primary failings of the original M1 in the PDW role)

The fact it was adapted to a pistol after the fact has no bearing on its being a pistol round (in my reasoning, at least). That said, FNH did an excellent job in developing the five-seven pistol that I enjoy shooting very much. If the PS90 were a bit more svelt (it's a very thick gun) I would own one, but instead I am left wanting


*meant in the obvious sense, not the illogical legal one
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things."
-- Alex Rosewater
barnbwt is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 08:42 PM   #42
Old 454
Senior Member
Join Date: August 15, 2011
Location: Chesterton Ind.
Posts: 457
The original Op stated he didn't trust a 44 mag to take down a bear.Wasn't there a polar bear taken with a 44 mag some time ago ?

Head over the the Freedom Arms Web site and look at there trophy section.

The Freedom Arms in .454 Casull has taken every thing you could hunt on the African continent. There is plenty O' Power in a 454, granted these were used by profesional hunters with well placed shots.

Really no need for a rifle round in a hand gun. If you need that kind of power use a rifle.
Old 454 is offline  
Old February 26, 2014, 11:01 PM   #43
Senior Member
Join Date: August 20, 2009
Posts: 805
What about like real rifle rounds. Like 223, 243.
Others have already alluded to this, but here is some data to back it up. Out of typical CC barrel lengths, you'd lose half the velocity or more (compared to .223 rifles). Auto pistol cartridges such as Sig .357 can just about match--or even surpass--those velocities with bullets 2 or 3 times heavier.

Last edited by idek; February 26, 2014 at 11:13 PM.
idek is offline  
Old February 27, 2014, 04:12 PM   #44
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 666
How about an American Derringer in .45-70?
JN01 is offline  
Old February 27, 2014, 11:42 PM   #45
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 3,717
I don't think the 5.7 counts, particularly considering that the OP mentions bear defense.
I have seen 3 Grizzly bear take downs with high capacity guns (and one I suspected was an exaggeration but done with a 45 ACP supposedly)

Two with 9mm and one with Russian 5.45.

Interesting theory that quantity is better than quality.

So far to few examples but its an interesting concept, massive trauma induced via multiple hits vs massive trauma with one hit.

I do carry the 9mm these days bear included though not like the trips of yesteryear where I was deep in the woods.

So I would not discount it, and the 5.7 would get you some great penetration.
RC20 is offline  
Old February 28, 2014, 12:47 AM   #46
Senior Member
Join Date: April 27, 2010
Posts: 553
Check out the Micro AK:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (41.7 KB, 45 views)
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable."
-Sydney J. Harris
spanishjames is offline  
Old February 28, 2014, 02:59 AM   #47
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: Sea-Tac,WA
Posts: 533
have you folks forgot about the Taurus Raging 223? , yeah i know it's not a pistol per se, but it does shoot rifle rounds.
Rugers:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlins: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE
9mm 4",Springfield:XD .357sig 4", AKs:CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63, WW74,SLR-106c
silvermane_1 is offline  
Old February 28, 2014, 11:21 PM   #48
Deja vu
Senior Member
Join Date: March 14, 2010
Location: Border of Idaho & Montana
Posts: 2,507
I own a BFR in 45-70. I think with handloading it could handle any bear on the globe.
Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...
Deja vu is offline  
Old February 28, 2014, 11:44 PM   #49
Senior Member
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,172
The late Clarence M. Bates made .45-70 revolvers for years. (He made other types of firearms as well; These are usually identifiable by his "CMB" mark.)
gyvel is offline  
Old March 1, 2014, 01:11 AM   #50
got ammo?
Join Date: June 2, 2009
Location: gun hating Massachusetts
Posts: 78
I don't know if this counts, but I once had an AMT automag II. chambered for 22 WMR, a well known rifle varmint round. The gun sucked. It would jam constantly on anything but Remington gold or Hornady V Max. accuracy was random, and I swear it was as loud as a .357 mag snub. The best thing about it was you could get a foot long lick of fire out of the muzzle when you fired it, which looked cool.
I think the rifle rounds should stay in rifles.
got ammo? is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:58 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2017 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11321 seconds with 8 queries