Full-Auto M-16s as C&R Guns?

jag2 · April 19, 2014, 10:25 AM

Just thinking about M-16s that are starting to become C&R eligible (date wise anyway). I'm guessing the govt won't be selling those in full auto form but do you think they will convert them to semi and sell them thru the CMP? I have seen one AR-15 go up for sale on an auction site and it appeared that it was C&R eligible but the site chose to require an FFL to be on the safe side. Their choice, I have no beef with that but in the coming 5 to 10 years this is going to come up a lot. Anyone have an idea on how this might be handled?

Willie Lowman · April 19, 2014, 10:38 AM

Quote:

I'm guessing the govt won't be selling those in full auto form but do you think they will convert them to semi and sell them thru the CMP?

No not in a million years. You've never heard the ATF's line "Once a machine gun, always a machine gun" have you?

**44 AMP** · April 22, 2014, 12:29 PM

Willie is entirely right.

You can convert an M16 to semi auto functionally, but you cannot convert it to semi auto LEGALLY. And by that I don't mean it's not legal to convert one to semi only, I mean that converting one will not change its legal status as a machine gun.

The stripped lower alone is legally a machine gun, with no other parts attached! Whether or not it functions as a full auto is of no consequence with an M16, they were ALL machineguns, from the day the were built, and under current law, always will be.

Add in the fact that no gun (by individual ser#) that was not on the allowed for civilian ownership registry before the May 86 cutoff date is allowed to be added to it.

The govt is not going to take old M16s, remover the full auto parts and sell them as C&R guns. Not going to happen, count on that, sure as death and taxes.

noelf2 · April 22, 2014, 02:08 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even machine guns qualify as C&R. Once you do the appropriate forms (form 4?) and get approval, it can be shipped to your house as a C&R firearm.

carguychris · April 22, 2014, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noelf2

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even machine guns qualify as C&R. Once you do the appropriate forms (form 4?) and get approval, it can be shipped to your house as a C&R firearm.

This is true, and AFAIK it's a nice convenience when buying a C&R machinegun from out-of-state, as you don't need to pay for an additional tax stamp for an in-state Class III dealer.

However, it does NOT affect the May 86 cutoff issue that 44 AMP discussed; a non-transferable machinegun does NOT magically become transferable once it attains C&R status under the 50-year rule.

Yes, a few early AR-15's and existing transferable M-16's are now attaining C&R status under the 50-year rule, but that's notably different than adding transferable M-16's to the registry. For that to happen, the Hughes Amendment must go away.

[Also, as a minor footnote, CMP rifles can be shipped to your door simply because they're from the CMP; C&R status has nothing to do with it. The CMP is exempt from normal FFL transfer requirements.]

jag2 · April 22, 2014, 11:35 PM

I admit I'm ignorant about AR-15s. Don't have one, don't want one. I was under the assumption that it would be fairly easy to yank out the auto parts and replace them with semi-auto. This would be performed by the fine people of the CMP and I'm sure that if a certain branch of the govt. told the ATF that this is going to happen and to stand down, they would. But I do agree it would be a hard sell to make happen, doubt even the NRA could get that one passed.

csmsss · April 23, 2014, 06:25 PM

Quote:

I was under the assumption that it would be fairly easy to yank out the auto parts and replace them with semi-auto.

Entirely irrelevant as far as the rifle's status as a non-transferable NFA firearm.

Quote:

This would be performed by the fine people of the CMP

Makes no difference who does the conversion.

Quote:

I'm sure that if a certain branch of the govt. told the ATF that this is going to happen and to stand down, they would.

Nope. The law would have to change first. But even if the law DID change, that "certain branch" is about as likely to do what you're dreaming up as the cover girl from the SI swimsuit issue is to propose marriage to me.

Quote:

doubt even the NRA could get that one passed

Neither the NRA nor any other non-legislative entity has the authority to change law. Only Congress, with the signature of the President (or an override of his veto) has that authority.

James K · April 23, 2014, 08:08 PM

Just a bit of history. Back in the early 1960's, the Army was ready to release some M14 rifles for sale through the (then) DCM program. These would have the selector welded and the marking changed to M14M. Since that would be a new model, and since the U.S. was considered the legal manufacturer, the change would be OK, not violating the "OAMGAAMG" rule. ATTD (as it was then) gave the approval and sales were to be announced in January, 1964. But the events of November 22, 1963, changed that and the guns were never sold. A few had been converted and were loaned to state rifle clubs, but the U.S. retained ownership.

This is by way of noting that if the U.S. should ever decide to sell M16's (yes, a snowball in hades has a better chance) there is a way it could be done, and a precedent for it.

Jim

tobnpr · April 23, 2014, 08:55 PM

Earlier machine guns aside, when Colt began selling the civilian semi-auto AR-15 versions (as the prior Armalite MG's were re-named the M16 IIRC) in '63- many of these and those of subsequent years will be hitting the markets as C&R guns.

Won't be seeing them for sale from SOG, but it will be interesting as private sellers will certainly be selling them as "C&R" status.

Wonder what they're selling for...

James K · April 23, 2014, 09:35 PM

Why would the C&R status affect the price? I have not seen any change in the prices of guns like the M1 rifle, the P.38, the pre-64 Winchesters, etc., SOLELY because they are now C&R's. Why would semi-auto AR-15's be any different than semi-auto Remington 740's?

C&R status allows interstate shipment directly to the holder of a C&R FFL, and I can't imagine that there will be any significant change in that situation. (That is true of C&R full automatic weapons, as well.) Semi-auto AR-15's would still be restricted or banned in those states where they are restricted or banned now; the C&R status will not change that.

Jim

April 19, 2014, 10:25 AM	#1
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	Full-Auto M-16s as C&R Guns? Just thinking about M-16s that are starting to become C&R eligible (date wise anyway). I'm guessing the govt won't be selling those in full auto form but do you think they will convert them to semi and sell them thru the CMP? I have seen one AR-15 go up for sale on an auction site and it appeared that it was C&R eligible but the site chose to require an FFL to be on the safe side. Their choice, I have no beef with that but in the coming 5 to 10 years this is going to come up a lot. Anyone have an idea on how this might be handled? Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; April 22, 2014 at 10:49 AM.

April 22, 2014, 12:29 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,835	Willie is entirely right. You can convert an M16 to semi auto functionally, but you cannot convert it to semi auto LEGALLY. And by that I don't mean it's not legal to convert one to semi only, I mean that converting one will not change its legal status as a machine gun. The stripped lower alone is legally a machine gun, with no other parts attached! Whether or not it functions as a full auto is of no consequence with an M16, they were ALL machineguns, from the day the were built, and under current law, always will be. Add in the fact that no gun (by individual ser#) that was not on the allowed for civilian ownership registry before the May 86 cutoff date is allowed to be added to it. The govt is not going to take old M16s, remover the full auto parts and sell them as C&R guns. Not going to happen, count on that, sure as death and taxes. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 22, 2014, 02:08 PM	#4
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Correct me if I'm wrong, but even machine guns qualify as C&R. Once you do the appropriate forms (form 4?) and get approval, it can be shipped to your house as a C&R firearm. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

April 23, 2014, 08:55 PM	#9
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Earlier machine guns aside, when Colt began selling the civilian semi-auto AR-15 versions (as the prior Armalite MG's were re-named the M16 IIRC) in '63- many of these and those of subsequent years will be hitting the markets as C&R guns. Won't be seeing them for sale from SOG, but it will be interesting as private sellers will certainly be selling them as "C&R" status. Wonder what they're selling for... __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

April 22, 2014, 11:35 PM	#6
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	I admit I'm ignorant about AR-15s. Don't have one, don't want one. I was under the assumption that it would be fairly easy to yank out the auto parts and replace them with semi-auto. This would be performed by the fine people of the CMP and I'm sure that if a certain branch of the govt. told the ATF that this is going to happen and to stand down, they would. But I do agree it would be a hard sell to make happen, doubt even the NRA could get that one passed.

April 23, 2014, 08:08 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Just a bit of history. Back in the early 1960's, the Army was ready to release some M14 rifles for sale through the (then) DCM program. These would have the selector welded and the marking changed to M14M. Since that would be a new model, and since the U.S. was considered the legal manufacturer, the change would be OK, not violating the "OAMGAAMG" rule. ATTD (as it was then) gave the approval and sales were to be announced in January, 1964. But the events of November 22, 1963, changed that and the guns were never sold. A few had been converted and were loaned to state rifle clubs, but the U.S. retained ownership. This is by way of noting that if the U.S. should ever decide to sell M16's (yes, a snowball in hades has a better chance) there is a way it could be done, and a precedent for it. Jim

April 23, 2014, 09:35 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Why would the C&R status affect the price? I have not seen any change in the prices of guns like the M1 rifle, the P.38, the pre-64 Winchesters, etc., SOLELY because they are now C&R's. Why would semi-auto AR-15's be any different than semi-auto Remington 740's? C&R status allows interstate shipment directly to the holder of a C&R FFL, and I can't imagine that there will be any significant change in that situation. (That is true of C&R full automatic weapons, as well.) Semi-auto AR-15's would still be restricted or banned in those states where they are restricted or banned now; the C&R status will not change that. Jim