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Old November 19, 2013, 11:31 AM   #26
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If regular handgun ammo was simply not available and I had to opt for something like this, I would go the route of the Winchester PDX1 ammo.

My in-laws keep this in a S&W Governor in their bedroom for home defense. My personal experience shooting it at the range, the disks easily hold close enough together that nothing will miss a body-sized target when aiming at center mass.
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Old November 19, 2013, 11:32 AM   #27
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Sorry, but some of the claims are just bogus wishful thinking. The fragments are designed to revector to do maximum damage without over penetrating? What if they just revector out of the body?

This stuff makes extreme shock look good.
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Old November 19, 2013, 11:57 AM   #28
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I'm all for collecting odd ball rounds for the sake of collecting, but this product is just silly in its concept and purpose.

Tests on actual flesh and gel will probably give enough evidence to that this product fails to meet HD/SD requirements. Sure, it'll punch through a paper at 7 yds...but so will a rock if you throw it hard enough.
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Old November 19, 2013, 12:21 PM   #29
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If you want wide shot dispersion so you can be fairly certain of a hit (leaving aside the idea of it being an effective hit, for now), why not just shoot a Judge?

I've seen strung shot, tailed shot, buck & ball, and a number of other things, some of them actually make a limited amount of sense, in a shotgun. They are more than a little foolish, and less effective, out of a handgun round.

I'm a longtime fan of the .410/.45 Colt combination barrel in a Contender, or other suitable handgun. The .410 shell is a very useful and potent small game shot, under certain conditions. Varmint/predator control being the most useful.

Any gun is useful for selfdefense, even the .410, and the right ammo allows it to be the most effective possible, but not every combination is as useful and effective as every other.

Shotguns, (and here we're looking at 20ga and up..) have a reputation for being very effective for self defense. But too many people only focus on the "multiple hits" aspect as what makes them so effective, and completely discount, or do not consciously take into account, the fact that what makes the shotgun so effective isn't the multiple hits, its is the mass of the projectiles that gets the job done.

Many discount the use of birdshot for defense, and, compared to larger projectiles, they have a point, small shot doesn't penetrate much, and is unlikely to be a good "stopper", from the point of view of being able to reach vital organs deep in the body.

Taking a standard pistol round, where the weight(mass) of the projectile is reduced by using multiple shot, and fastening them together, is only going to decrease the available penetration capability of the round in question.

Horrific surface wounds can stop a fight, and often do. But they cannot be counted on to physically stop an attack. From a self defense standpoint, anything that stops the attack, including anything that makes the attacker change their mind and break off is a success.

I'm not saying the "chain shot" won't work, a face full of birdshot has a pretty high "discourage" factor at across the room range, too. But, again, the birdshot is "bigger" mass when it hits than any common pistol round, too.

I do have to wonder about how trauma surgeons would view the use of "chain shot". OR the prosecutor....
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
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Old November 19, 2013, 07:34 PM   #30
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reinvented civil war era Buck n Ball
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Old November 19, 2013, 07:42 PM   #31
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makes the man with a revolver loaded with 22 shorts feel like god.
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Old November 23, 2013, 02:38 PM   #32
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They just posted a follow up video today showcasing the 12 gauge. In this video, they do actually show a bit of penetration testing on plywood with somewhat decent results. They also mention that "another big youtube channel" that does a lot of ballistics testing will be testing it soon with ballistics gel. I'm going to assume he means TNOutdoors9. His opinion I would actually be interested in hearing.
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Old November 23, 2013, 02:46 PM   #33
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I think the big difference between the stuff and Civil War era buck and ball is that buck and ball actually worked. We know that to be a fact from the historical record. This stuff? Who knows.

Another big difference is that buck and ball would have been relatively cheap, while this stuff is frighteningly expensive.

The biggest drawback to buck and ball is its limited range compared to a rifled musket.

But, as the Irish Brigade proved at the Sunken Road at Antietam, if they could get into effective range, buck and ball was absolutely devastating.

In fact, buck and ball features prominently on the monument to the 12th New Jersey Volunteer Infantry at Gettysburg.
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Old November 23, 2013, 03:59 PM   #34
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I'm not going to buy it, but I think it's an interesting idea.
Anyone know what they're made of?
If it's heavy enough, and if it's moving fast enough sdo that it gets decent penetration, it might actually be useful.
If the cable actually stays attached, it could potentially be a pretty devastating round against soft tissue.

But that's a whole lot of "ifs".

I'll definitely keep an eye out for gel tests.

It might not be nearly as useful as a new JHP design, but - whether it surprises with success, or amuses with dismal failure - it should certainly be more fun to watch than yet another picture of ~14" of penetration, and ~1.5x expansion.
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Old November 26, 2013, 04:25 PM   #35
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Tim from the MilitaryArms Channel and TheBangSwitch just posted a write up on this ammo.

It can be read here:
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Old November 27, 2013, 11:08 AM   #36
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I think I'll buy a box and just stash it away. You know how oddball crap like this seems to go up in price as time passes and it becomes discontinued.
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Old November 27, 2013, 01:00 PM   #37
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Can't speak to human targets. However, as a bird hunter having shot many hundreds of birds on shooting operations and in the wild. I can vouch for the real world FACT that multiple pellets striking a bird AT THE SAME TIME tremendously increases lethality. That's why the 16 ga. and the 28 ga. are so lethal in comparison to other gauge shotguns.
As they have the shortest "shot strings" and the pellets strike at essentially the same instant. Other gauges take a few micro seconds to put the same number of shot on target.

Somewhere around my house I have a scientific paper which "proves" that it takes at least 1/4 oz. more shot in a 12 ga. to equal a 16. ga. with the same shot. Of course liars can prove any thing. But my experience has made me a believer that there is validity to "short shot strings" kill better, faster, on birds.
A 16 gauge kills more birds "dead right there" as does the 28 ga. Little wounding, no flopping, just "bang" and the dog retrieves.
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Old November 27, 2013, 01:11 PM   #38
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That seems to be more non leathal ammo. You would just **** some one off if you shot them. You would be better of with a baseball bat or just throw your gun at them. lol
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Old November 28, 2013, 02:12 PM   #39
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THIS WAS NEW.....back about fifty years ago or so.
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Old November 30, 2013, 08:53 AM   #40
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A quantum leap in bullet technology.
Approved by the ATF.
Incredible animated video.
The triple defense!!!!!

I don’t see why all of you are so down about this, with the description above it has to work!
I am going to buy several boxes, that way if I ever get attacked by a paper target I’ll be safe.
I think the next version will have the bullets designed so that as it rotates it will act like a helicopter rotor, that way it will take the lift and propel it faster be able to go twice as far.
I also heard that Ronco is looking at it for their new and improved cheese cutter.
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Old January 7, 2014, 11:04 PM   #41
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Wow, that guy is annoying! I know other's have mentioned it already, but I'm real interested in it's penetration capabilities?
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Old January 8, 2014, 03:08 AM   #42
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I must be getting old. This is nonsense to me. Not to mention the video is horrible.
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Old January 8, 2014, 10:26 AM   #43
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Tim from the MilitaryArms Channel and TheBangSwitch just posted a write up on this ammo.

It can be read here:
Looking at the ammo and the target, 3 fragments of about 40 grains each that are quite large? Looks like there would be considerable 'flutter' of the projectiles. Being that large and oddly shaped, you see the keyhole patterning on the target. They would likely NOT penetrate worth a darn. Sure, they would hurt a lot, but I bet they don't get more than 3 or 4" of penetration, certainly nothing approaching FBI standards.

Semi-lethal? What?
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Old January 8, 2014, 02:05 PM   #44
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What a joke. I'm sure plenty of people will buy the product because plenty of people have more money than brains.
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Old January 8, 2014, 03:59 PM   #45
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Different types of multi-ball ammo show up occasionally. Remington had a multi-ball 45acp round for bank guards ,They stopped production in about 1918.
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Old January 8, 2014, 04:33 PM   #46
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If the cables stay attached you wouldn't need a ton of penetration. It would be more of a "slashing" round than a "stabbing" one.
I still really want to see a gel test.

Sadly, I'm guessing they haven't posted one because they're unimpressive.
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Old January 8, 2014, 09:19 PM   #47
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Others have said it:

Three 40 gr. fluttering pieces of metal alloy held together by a piece of string. The pieces strike side on. Likely it would hurt some but there would be a lack of penetration. Penetration is important.

Would you trust this against a fellow in heavy winter clothing?

In the video they maintain that there is no danger of penetrating through a person.

Would you trust this to take a deer at 20 yards? Or 10?

Might work on a rabbit or raccoon.

Weapons Education is an odd fellow. I think it was at the 2012 or 2013 Shot Show that Les Baer (maybe Ed Brown) would not grant him an unscheduled on camera interview for his on line show. Weapons Education threatened tried to force Brown to give him an interview by threatening to denounce him to the "millions" of internet gun people who watched his show.

This is nothing like chain shot. That was fired from a cannon.

This is handgun velocities.

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Old January 8, 2014, 10:36 PM   #48
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LOL . . . I've actually enjoyed reading all of these posts more than I did watching the idiotic video . . . you guys all sound like a bunch of old farts sitting around the village coffee table . . . "humph . . a horseless carriage! It will never catch on!"

You have to admit . . . it's an interesting concept . . . BUT . . . it's not a cure all solution for someone who either doesn't or won't take the time to practice and then practice some more. Realistically, nobody knows how they will react if put in to a situation where they have to defer themselves. As I watched this video, I was thinking about the other day when I was sitting in the grocery store coffee area waiting while my wife shopped. I say this rather large and overweight young fellow come in (no offense to anyone) and what ran through my mind was a scenario with a perp that size and IF you could put someone down that size if you needed to as they were shooting at you. Looking at this round, I really question the "put down power" - they don't show penetration shots but I really have to doubt it.

I worked ambulance, fire and rescue and I've seen more than my share of gunshot victims. If it is one thing that I learned, it's about shot placement and never say "just what" will or will not put a person down and keep 'em there. Every situation is different just as the people involved. I guess I'd rather put my confidence in a proven round and hope that I can keep my wits about me enough to hit central mass than I would in a "flying saucer". That's why I shoot as often as I can on a continuing basis to keep in practice and even though I'm 61, I continue to take training and learn as much as I can when the opportunity presents itself.

As far as a "non lethal round" . . or whatever they referred to it as . . . that is contrary to everything I have been taught over the years. I was shot at many years ago and I can still remember the extreme fear, confusion and what seemed like slowing of time - but which was actually only a few seconds. I wasn't armed. I don't know how I would react if placed in that type of situation again . . but if I am in fear of my life or that of my family . . enough to draw a weapon and defend myself if someone is going to shoot me . . . I have always been taught that you shoot to put them down and don't stop until they are . . because they are trying to do the same to you.

This "new round" to me is just a bunch of "hype" - there is no short cut for practice and training . . . however, I suppose it may have possibilities for pheasant hunting up close?
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Old January 8, 2014, 10:48 PM   #49
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You don't have to go back to buck-and-ball for that kind of thing. There was 7,62mm NATO M198 duplex load, which had two 84 grain bullets in the case; the rear one had an angled base so it would fly off at an angle. The idea was to disperse the fire from machineguns. (FWIW, the bipod was moved from the foreend to the barrel on the BAR for the same reason; the BAR would put all its bullets in an enemy's third coat button at 100 yards if there was nothing to spread the blessings around.)

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Old January 9, 2014, 12:36 AM   #50
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Remington made 357Mag police ammo with two 000buckshot loaded on top of each other.
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