Vintage "German" reticle scopes worth any more than any other old scope ???

Magnum Wheel Man · September 26, 2013, 07:31 AM

FIL must have liked these reticles particularly for deer hunting, & I'm attempting to trade in several shotguns for a new bolt action rifle... so while cleaning them up, & pull off the scopes, I noticed that the 2 that had scopes on were both pretty good quality vintage scopes, with the "german" reticles...

anyone collect these ???

I find I prefer a more modern good quality scope, for actual use... so I'm undecided whether to mount them on some of my old milsurps, or to put them on the table at the one local gun show I get a couple tables at???

thoughts ???

Pahoo · September 26, 2013, 10:16 AM

Kind of depends on just how vintage they are and if they were ever military. There is a market for these and it might surprise you to know that there are a bunch of "vintage" guys out there, looking for them. If you are going to sell them, pull them and sell them separately. At GS's, it's pretty much assumed that a scoped rifle, doesn't have much of a scope. It is a bonus that seldom gets full credit. In the past, I have only had one of these scopes and did quite well on it. Also, recently sold about a dozen old Weavers that I had sitting around. They didn't last long..

Be Safe !!!

Mueller · September 26, 2013, 12:10 PM

It also depends on the firearm they were mounted on, if it is a say German Drilling or Shotgun with Claw or turret mounts, then leaving the arm intact could raise the value.

The thing one must remember is that the German/Russian/British/American etc used all sorts of scopes for sniper rifles during WW2, basically anything functioning or reasonably well put together could find it's way onto a sniper rifle, even commercial made scopes and hunting rifles were pressed into service and some were used thru out the entire conflict.

There are several boards out there that primarily deal in WW1/WW2 and later conflict military arms and optics and they , once provided with some pictures and other information (markings design features) can usually tell you what you have and a tentative value and will quite often be willing to purchase said items.

Then you have the folks who want a Vintage sniper rifle, but lack the funds to do so and therefore want to build one and will do it with a mix of vintage firearms (usually a low value arsenal rebuild rifle) and modern reproduction mounts or as some of us have done found original mounts that were taken off or never used and assembled a working arm out it.

This is truly a case of the internet being your friend, a little research can mean big returns.

Good luck.

Magnum Wheel Man · September 26, 2013, 12:22 PM

I think total, I have 3 scopes with these reticles... to me, the base is too thick & obscures a lot of the target

I'll go through & pull brands & power ranges, etc. of each one ( I may have sold the 3rd, or put it in my save for some reason drawer ??? )... ( BTW, both were on Remy 11-48's, one a .410 & one a 12 ga ) & were on conventional mounts...the 2nd one I pulled last night IIRC was a 3-9 X with short low screw on caps around 1/2" in diameter ( just enough to cover the adjustment screw )... that one was a better brand & quality scope, but had a few dings around the front, & finish worn through in a few spots... so may have seen military use in an earlier life ???

Mueller · September 26, 2013, 12:55 PM

A variable will probably be post war say maybe the 60's or later.

Companies like AJACK made optics into the 60's, Helia/Kahles 70's+, Hensoldt current, Kaps current and there are many others, not counting those made for sale under House brands.

The possibility of military service exists, but without identifying the optics it hard to say and even if you can identify the optics and they are of the proper era, without any supporting evidence or provenance it is just speculation (capture papers/serial numbered to issued weapon,accepted military marks etc).

The reticle is/was a popular one, especially under low light conditions and can be used as a crude range finder provided you know the area covered by the reticle and the distance between the posts.

Magnum Wheel Man · September 27, 2013, 09:08 AM

so I found the 3rd scope last night... the one I had put away, was the Redfield listed below...

here's what I have

... a "vintage" 4X Redfield

... a "vintage" Weaver K-2.5 60-C

... a "vintage" Weaver KV-60 3-5X ( power adjustment is under a screw on cap )... this one has a chip in the eye piece lens, but is still clear & useable ( I'm wondering if this is isn't something a bit unusual, & worth trying to find a place to get it repaired ???

all 3 of them have the "german" reticles, "the look" of use, but not abuse... with thin finishes on the high spots

anyone see anything there that's more collectable than say a "vintage" Weaver 4X with a traditional crosshair reticle ???

PawPaw · September 27, 2013, 09:16 AM

Are those "El Paso" Weaver scopes?

I've always like those old Weaver's and might be interested.

Magnum Wheel Man · September 27, 2013, 09:28 AM

ya know... I was going to write that down last night, but didn't

... can't be positive, but that sounds familiar... I'll check when I get home... ( so... would that be good or bad ??? as far as value & or quality ??? )

Magnum Wheel Man · September 27, 2013, 09:49 AM

so doing a www search, I found this one that sold on auction ( but had a regular cross hair reticle )

finish is tougher on mine though, & of course the "german" reticle, but same era & type ( I've seen some others of this model with bigger screw caps, so I'd say mine is earlier than those ??? )

http://www.gunauction.com/search/dis...temnum=4214489

... & perhaps mine are not actually a "german" reticles ??? ( certainly not a #4 ) I was looking to find a match ( all 3 are the same ) the bottom post is not the same thickness, thicker at the bottom, than it is at the center of the lense... I think they best look like this picture I found... can someone name this type of reticle for me ???

PetahW · September 27, 2013, 10:38 AM

.

You seem to have some ElPaso (production) scopes - made well before the current Japanese-made Weaver scopes.

The reticle's called a "post & crosshair", although many post reticles were made sans the crosshair.
They were very popular amongst hunters, up to the late 1970's, when many shooters became enamored with long-range game shooting as proof of their prowess.

They're quite useful for quick shots when brush-hunting game - but they were never meant as a long-range or target reticle, and so went out of favor after then.

The thickness of the post is an aid for perception & fast optical "pick up" - when used properly the post thickness should have no bearing on target obstruction, since they should be zeroed at the tip of the post.

Most "German" reticles typically have 3 or 4 heavy posts - like a super-thick Duplex reticle.

.

Magnum Wheel Man · September 27, 2013, 10:49 AM

so these were predominately a thicker woods hunting reticle, rather than a military type then I assume ???

.... so these would not be at all correct to put on a Garand or M1-A, or one of my Czech bolt action milsurps ??? as I mentioned in my original post, they are not something I prefer to use, on one of my hunting guns ( though I may leave the one on the FIL's woodsman carbine, since that was his go to deer gun, & the scope he had on it, when he died... ( the Redfield is / was currently on the Woodsman carbine )

Magnum Wheel Man · September 27, 2013, 11:04 AM

so I just contacted Iron Sight ( scope repair for vintage Redfield & Weaver scopes ) & to repair the eye piece lens... ( they have plenty of them )... is $95.00 I may do that, & have the scope reconditioned, ( but not re-blued ), & keep the, ( actually... according to the Iron Sight tech ) a 2.75 - 5X scope, & may stick it on a sporterized BRNO Czech 8mm bolt rifle, that I take out & shoot once in a while...

that leaves probably selling the K 2.5 at the local gun show that I sell at once a year... any thoughts on what that one would be worth ??? ( finish on that one is pretty decent, for it's age ) just gleaned through E-Bay, & looks like $30.00 - $60.00 for anything getting bids...

thanks for all the help guys...

James K · September 27, 2013, 12:14 PM

For some reason I can't really understand, used scopes are worth very little and add very little to the value of a rifle on which one is mounted. It is strange because generally they will be in good shape, and no one ever wore out a scope by looking through it.

Needless to say, military "sniper" scopes, from any country, are a high ticket item, but ordinary civilian hunting scopes are of little collector interest.

Jim

September 26, 2013, 07:31 AM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Vintage post & crosshair reticle scopes worth any more than any other old scope ??? FIL must have liked these reticles particularly for deer hunting, & I'm attempting to trade in several shotguns for a new bolt action rifle... so while cleaning them up, & pull off the scopes, I noticed that the 2 that had scopes on were both pretty good quality vintage scopes, with the "german" reticles... anyone collect these ??? I find I prefer a more modern good quality scope, for actual use... so I'm undecided whether to mount them on some of my old milsurps, or to put them on the table at the one local gun show I get a couple tables at??? thoughts ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; September 27, 2013 at 11:25 AM.

September 26, 2013, 10:16 AM	#2
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Sell separately Kind of depends on just how vintage they are and if they were ever military. There is a market for these and it might surprise you to know that there are a bunch of "vintage" guys out there, looking for them. If you are going to sell them, pull them and sell them separately. At GS's, it's pretty much assumed that a scoped rifle, doesn't have much of a scope. It is a bonus that seldom gets full credit. In the past, I have only had one of these scopes and did quite well on it. Also, recently sold about a dozen old Weavers that I had sitting around. They didn't last long.. Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

September 27, 2013, 09:08 AM	#6
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	so I found the 3rd scope last night... the one I had put away, was the Redfield listed below... here's what I have ... a "vintage" 4X Redfield ... a "vintage" Weaver K-2.5 60-C ... a "vintage" Weaver KV-60 3-5X ( power adjustment is under a screw on cap )... this one has a chip in the eye piece lens, but is still clear & useable ( I'm wondering if this is isn't something a bit unusual, & worth trying to find a place to get it repaired ??? all 3 of them have the "german" reticles, "the look" of use, but not abuse... with thin finishes on the high spots anyone see anything there that's more collectable than say a "vintage" Weaver 4X with a traditional crosshair reticle ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

September 27, 2013, 09:16 AM	#7
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	Are those "El Paso" Weaver scopes? I've always like those old Weaver's and might be interested. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

September 27, 2013, 09:28 AM	#8
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	ya know... I was going to write that down last night, but didn't ... can't be positive, but that sounds familiar... I'll check when I get home... ( so... would that be good or bad ??? as far as value & or quality ??? ) __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

September 26, 2013, 12:10 PM	#3
Mueller Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2001 Posts: 136	It also depends on the firearm they were mounted on, if it is a say German Drilling or Shotgun with Claw or turret mounts, then leaving the arm intact could raise the value. The thing one must remember is that the German/Russian/British/American etc used all sorts of scopes for sniper rifles during WW2, basically anything functioning or reasonably well put together could find it's way onto a sniper rifle, even commercial made scopes and hunting rifles were pressed into service and some were used thru out the entire conflict. There are several boards out there that primarily deal in WW1/WW2 and later conflict military arms and optics and they , once provided with some pictures and other information (markings design features) can usually tell you what you have and a tentative value and will quite often be willing to purchase said items. Then you have the folks who want a Vintage sniper rifle, but lack the funds to do so and therefore want to build one and will do it with a mix of vintage firearms (usually a low value arsenal rebuild rifle) and modern reproduction mounts or as some of us have done found original mounts that were taken off or never used and assembled a working arm out it. This is truly a case of the internet being your friend, a little research can mean big returns. Good luck.

September 26, 2013, 12:22 PM	#4
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I think total, I have 3 scopes with these reticles... to me, the base is too thick & obscures a lot of the target I'll go through & pull brands & power ranges, etc. of each one ( I may have sold the 3rd, or put it in my save for some reason drawer ??? )... ( BTW, both were on Remy 11-48's, one a .410 & one a 12 ga ) & were on conventional mounts...the 2nd one I pulled last night IIRC was a 3-9 X with short low screw on caps around 1/2" in diameter ( just enough to cover the adjustment screw )... that one was a better brand & quality scope, but had a few dings around the front, & finish worn through in a few spots... so may have seen military use in an earlier life ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

September 26, 2013, 12:55 PM	#5
Mueller Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2001 Posts: 136	A variable will probably be post war say maybe the 60's or later. Companies like AJACK made optics into the 60's, Helia/Kahles 70's+, Hensoldt current, Kaps current and there are many others, not counting those made for sale under House brands. The possibility of military service exists, but without identifying the optics it hard to say and even if you can identify the optics and they are of the proper era, without any supporting evidence or provenance it is just speculation (capture papers/serial numbered to issued weapon,accepted military marks etc). The reticle is/was a popular one, especially under low light conditions and can be used as a crude range finder provided you know the area covered by the reticle and the distance between the posts.

September 27, 2013, 10:38 AM	#10
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. You seem to have some ElPaso (production) scopes - made well before the current Japanese-made Weaver scopes. The reticle's called a "post & crosshair", although many post reticles were made sans the crosshair. They were very popular amongst hunters, up to the late 1970's, when many shooters became enamored with long-range game shooting as proof of their prowess. They're quite useful for quick shots when brush-hunting game - but they were never meant as a long-range or target reticle, and so went out of favor after then. The thickness of the post is an aid for perception & fast optical "pick up" - when used properly the post thickness should have no bearing on target obstruction, since they should be zeroed at the tip of the post. Most "German" reticles typically have 3 or 4 heavy posts - like a super-thick Duplex reticle. . Last edited by PetahW; September 27, 2013 at 10:47 AM.

September 27, 2013, 10:49 AM	#11
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	so these were predominately a thicker woods hunting reticle, rather than a military type then I assume ??? .... so these would not be at all correct to put on a Garand or M1-A, or one of my Czech bolt action milsurps ??? as I mentioned in my original post, they are not something I prefer to use, on one of my hunting guns ( though I may leave the one on the FIL's woodsman carbine, since that was his go to deer gun, & the scope he had on it, when he died... ( the Redfield is / was currently on the Woodsman carbine ) __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; September 27, 2013 at 11:06 AM.

September 27, 2013, 11:04 AM	#12
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	so I just contacted Iron Sight ( scope repair for vintage Redfield & Weaver scopes ) & to repair the eye piece lens... ( they have plenty of them )... is $95.00 I may do that, & have the scope reconditioned, ( but not re-blued ), & keep the, ( actually... according to the Iron Sight tech ) a 2.75 - 5X scope, & may stick it on a sporterized BRNO Czech 8mm bolt rifle, that I take out & shoot once in a while... that leaves probably selling the K 2.5 at the local gun show that I sell at once a year... any thoughts on what that one would be worth ??? ( finish on that one is pretty decent, for it's age ) just gleaned through E-Bay, & looks like $30.00 - $60.00 for anything getting bids... thanks for all the help guys... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; September 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM.

September 27, 2013, 12:14 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	For some reason I can't really understand, used scopes are worth very little and add very little to the value of a rifle on which one is mounted. It is strange because generally they will be in good shape, and no one ever wore out a scope by looking through it. Needless to say, military "sniper" scopes, from any country, are a high ticket item, but ordinary civilian hunting scopes are of little collector interest. Jim