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Old July 18, 2013, 10:11 AM   #26
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I find this an odd post, This isn't what I've been seeing at matches.

First let me say I don't own a M&P nor do I plan on buying one. I shoot mostly revolvers in competitions, but when I do shoot autos its either my Series 70 Gold Cup or my Beretta 92FS.

But the last several months I've been watching people shoot different autos at various type action style matches.

It seems to me the M&Ps are out preforming the others by a long shot, plus they seem to have the least malfunctions.

I mentioned this before and everyone chimed in saying its the ammo, reloaded or other wise, that's not the case. Most people I see shooting are shooting reloads. Pretty much have to if you want to shoot now days.

I have no dog in the fight, I have no plans on buying a M&P I'm certainly not giving up my Colt, just saying.
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Old July 18, 2013, 10:23 AM   #27
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I agree. They are peddaling high priced junk with little to no QA or QC.

The famous logo must be what customers are paying for. Or perhaps all the return shipping that is needed. The current company calling itself S&W has excellent customer service. Because of the amount of practice they get.

I bought my last "new" S&W in 2000. The S&W company went out of business, for me.

I've participated in LE T&E of the M&P 40. Glock 22 won that one.

I've shot every model of M&P except for the 357sig and so called "pro series" guns. Lousy triggers, mediocre accuracy, poor quality at high prices.

Not one can hold a candle to my 3rd gen series S&W pistols. Regards 18DAI
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Old July 18, 2013, 10:57 AM   #28
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A lot of folks are comparing 3rd gen S&Ws and even 1911s to the M&P . Perhaps I'm missing something but I fail to see how that's a fair comparison.
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Old July 18, 2013, 11:02 AM   #29
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I've owned lots of S&Ws including three mod 41s.
The only S&W that's ever given me any significant problems was a 4" mod 66 that I bought used and as it turned out, abused. It spit lead. S&W fixed it for free.
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Old July 18, 2013, 11:28 AM   #30
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S&W as far as revolvers are in their own league. A S&W revolver is still a heirloom. They have never, ever let me down and always ozzes quality.

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Old July 18, 2013, 12:45 PM   #31
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I don't think any of the look alike tactical pistols are really worth a hoot, they simply are not in the same league as the semi auto target pistols. If you can live with that and like to plink with them its ok, but they are not accurate and sometimes not reliable.

As for the Model 41, thats a shame and worse that its gone back twice and no resolve. Prior to the nut time S&W was better than that. They did get bad stuff out but they fixed it when sent back.

You don't say what the problem with the 7 inch barrel is though.

If you want a good Model 41 the older ones usually are (and oddly only about $750 which makes you scratch your head why anyone would buy a newer less reliable one vs an older one that you can't wear out.. Occasionally there was an erratic one though so its buyer beware.
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Old July 18, 2013, 05:30 PM   #32
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S&W failing? Hardly. The M&P is a runaway success. Most of the police departments around me are switching to M&P pistols..They are kicking some serious butt in the current market.

BTW, where did the original poster disappear to? He tossed a grenade by starting this thread and then ran away.
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Old July 18, 2013, 07:28 PM   #33
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The M&P family of Pistols and AR rifles are going like a freight train......

The revolvers are still the standard

Fail? I think not

Sorry for your luck on the 22

I love my M&P Shield and my M&P 45C .........

May go for the new M&P 10 308 when the pennies come together
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Old July 18, 2013, 07:48 PM   #34
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I also have an MP that I bought new and is the biggest piece of garbage that I ever spent money on.From the first day the thing has not shot a whole mag without some-kind of failures.It's the gun I put in back of the safe and just forgot about not even gonna waste my time sending it in.But on the other hand I cant say a bad word about any of there revolvers!
Wow! If you have no need for it I would love to have it .

I have never heard that bad of a report from the M&P but you can get a bad gun from ANY manufacturer so why not send it back?

Don't throw out a bag of apples if you find a bad one and don't judge a gun line because of one gun is my motto.

TO the Op:
Sorry to hear about your bad luck. I have been around guns for many years and owned and traded many. I have owned Glock, S&W, Taurus, Hi-point, Sig Sauer and many more.

My favorite revolver is a S&W hands down. Not saying there are not other quality revolvers out there but I have never had (I have owned more than 30) A S&W fail me in any kind of way.

When it comes to Semi autos, I have had almost the same luck with the exception of a bent magazine or Limp Wristing in the polymer frames.

I bought a S&W 5906 one time and it was jamming. Got a deal and all that was wrong with it was grime from over oiling witch looked more like grease. Caked with crud that looked like they covered the internals with grease and buried it in sand.

Cleaned the gun and worked flawlessly. I still regret trading that gun until this day.

Hope this experience doesn't leave a permanent bad taste in your mouth. They do make some fine weapons.
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Old July 19, 2013, 02:15 AM   #35
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You obviously had some bad experiences, I can't deny those. But rimfire pistols can be pains in the butt. That's why I just stick to Ruger Mk models. They just plain work. Lastly, I think saying, "S&W failing in today's market" is a bit of hyperbole. The majority of the response to their products is popular, their stock is up, and if anything the company is generally well received. A sample size of one, while understandably unfortunate for you, can never measure a whole company.


In no way is S&W failing in today's market. The OP's unfortunate issues with only 2 pistols is a very small sample compared to the millions of other excellent firearms they have produced that has worked well for many others.

If I had one Glock or one Ruger that didn't work right, does that mean they are "failing" in today's market?
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Old July 19, 2013, 08:38 AM   #36
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Smith failing?

Smith and Wesson had a $78 million profit in the year just ended, so things can't be too bad... and about that Model 41 -- I find it ammo sensitive... have had zero problems shooting CCI mini-mags... dead accurate... I like the easy disassembly via pull-down trigger guard.
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Old July 19, 2013, 08:52 AM   #37
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Something tells me S&W will be ok.

I find this an odd post, This isn't what I've been seeing at matches.

First let me say I don't own a M&P nor do I plan on buying one. I shoot mostly revolvers in competitions, but when I do shoot autos its either my Series 70 Gold Cup or my Beretta 92FS.

But the last several months I've been watching people shoot different autos at various type action style matches.

It seems to me the M&Ps are out preforming the others by a long shot, plus they seem to have the least malfunctions.

I mentioned this before and everyone chimed in saying its the ammo, reloaded or other wise, that's not the case. Most people I see shooting are shooting reloads. Pretty much have to if you want to shoot now days.

I have no dog in the fight, I have no plans on buying a M&P I'm certainly not giving up my Colt, just saying.
I believe most folks here that were referring to likely ammo issues for the OP, are speaking about .22lr because that's what the OP has and many .22lr semi-autos are traditionally often prone to being very ammo sensitive.
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Old July 19, 2013, 01:52 PM   #38
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Smith and Wesson - failing in todays market
That's a pretty big statement and very untrue. You had some bad experiences , but many many more have had good experiences both with their firearms and customer service.

The M&P line alone is a knock out which includes the highly desirable Shield. Many departments are switching over to the M&P line as well. Nobody likes the locks on the revolvers, but some just don't care and they still sell well. The .22 M&P is a German made product (not American made like you thought) like so many other .22s out there. I have a GSG1911 that has been nothing but reliable and accurate, so I have no experience to bad mouth them.

In the end, it's your personal experience that put a bad taste towards S&W, but if you had bought many other examples of their offerings, you'd have something different to say.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; July 19, 2013 at 11:02 PM.
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Old July 19, 2013, 02:09 PM   #39
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I'm far from brand myopic, but I've owned just about every major brand and these days I mostly stick to Glocks and M&Ps. That includes the M&P22.

My M&P22 has been 100% on cheap Remington bulk ammo from walmart.. Granted, I've only got 1,000 rounds through it, but 1k rounds is what I use to consider centerfire guns to be reliable for carry purposes as well... so it's nothing to sneeze at.

My M&P 9 Pro is spectacular and I'm hoping to get an M&P 45 Compact soon. I've only had to deal with S&W customer service once and it was for a problem on the Walther PPS I had. They sent me a brand new factory gun and all brand new magazines (4 of them) within 10 days of sending it in.

Sorry for your luck, but you're definitely in a minority of experience. If there was anything to complain about on the M&P series for me, it would be the factory trigger... but that's an easy remedy.
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Old July 19, 2013, 02:21 PM   #40
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Smith and Wesson - failing in todays market

Originally Posted by gusser33 View Post
I have purchased two S&W pistols, one MP22 and a model 41. I got rid of the MP because it was just cheap, not reliable at all compared to my other pistols, especially the CZ. The model 41 has been a total disaster. It had constant Failure to fire and discharge problems. Perhaps two to three per magazine. It has been back twice and now there is a problem with the 7" barrel. It amazes me that a pistol costing just south of $1,300. could be constructed so poorly. Well, let me rephrase that, it seems impossible that a gun of such high materials and hand assembled and fit could be fit so poorly. My whole dealing with S&W started off fine and then just crumbled. They don't return calls, tell you it is doesn't and tell you they will work on it as soon as they get it and then it sits there for a month. I have learned a lesson in buying this gun as i wanted to buy an American Made Product. So much for that. I will stick with CZ and recommend you do the same.
I have a 41 on layaway after doing lots of research. Hopefully I don't run into the same problems. Maybe it's finicky with the ammo you are using?
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Old July 19, 2013, 02:39 PM   #41
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I was not a fan of the M&P 9c I had for a few weeks, but I am very critical of striker fired pistols and their abominable triggers. The only one that I've found that I like out of the box has been the Walther PPQ. I thought the M&P grip was far better than most polymer pistols, although I am a CZ-75 fan in the end.

I don't understand how any M&P is not accurate enough for self defense. I have a kel-tec that I can punch paper with at 30 feet if I go just the right amount of snake eyes, but it will do at the 3ft range I expect to use it at. Anyone doing serious competing is going to customize any off the shelf gun.
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Old July 19, 2013, 04:51 PM   #42
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Smith and Wesson - failing in todays market

Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I think that is the first good word I have seen about a Texas High Standard.
I treasure my old one.
I have two old Hamdens and love them but the new new Texas ones are fine, or that's what I have read and heard anyway.
The old new Texas guns were the craptacular ones.
Starting to sound like futurama.

I have shot two 41s and thought they were excellent, but 41 is kinda expensive and I have seen people on range suffering from magazine problems.

I have bought two s&w AR patterns and intend to buy their AR-10 and I love their revolvers, I have several. Their M&P pistols are kinda yucky and the 41 is one of those 'I will get one if I win a lottery but I'd rather just keep shooting my High Standards' things.

Last edited by Guggmeister; July 19, 2013 at 04:59 PM.
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Old July 19, 2013, 09:37 PM   #43
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I have shot and competed with .22 pistols for years. I currently own a good assortment of them including the three below that I don't think were in the previous photos I posted. I stated it before and will say it again, the 41 Smiths I owned and shot were not as good as any of the target pistols in the photos. That does not mean that they will not function, that they are not better than a Neos or SR-22, MP22, etc; what I found in actual head to head comparisons with REAL target pistols, 41s are not as good. While I am not rich by any means, I have the financial resources to get pretty much what I want and if the 41 would give me points in a match over what I am shooting now, I would have kept one. I shoot international and conventional pistol matches and the 41s don't have much of a presence with the better shooters where I competed. I have no beef with S&W as I have 7 now and see me keeping at least 6 of those under any circumstances. My conclusion is based on shooting a 41 head-to-head (using 3 different barrels) with a number of the guns in these photos and the 41 was not as good. I am going to go out on a limb a bit and say that most of the supporters of the 41 do not have the target pistols I have to compare it with so they may think it is good. If you want a .22 with a good trigger to informally target shoot with the 41 will be fine. If you are going to compete, IMHO you can do better. YMMV and I hope this helps.

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Old July 19, 2013, 10:38 PM   #44
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Smith and Wesson - failing in todays market

I would say your experience is an aberration. I base that on my personal experience as well as S&W latest quarterly earnings. My M&P 9c runs like a top and I have also picked up some of their newer revolvers that have also been very good.

Last edited by HKGuns; July 21, 2013 at 11:23 AM.
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Old July 19, 2013, 11:10 PM   #45
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Well, going out on the limb again, I am going to say the firearms industry as a whole is doing well but I don't know how that translates into the performance of a particular model. Here is an example:

Gun manufacturer, Sturm, Ruger & Co. Inc. released the company's 2012 annual report showing a 77.7 percent increase in earnings from the previous year. Ruger's stock, which trades on the New York Stock Exchange (TICKER: RGR), has increased 789% since President Barack Obama took office on January 20, 2009.
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Old July 20, 2013, 09:41 AM   #46
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My next outing to the range , I'll have to post some of my 25 yd groups shot off hand with my old model 41 w 5.5 " bull barrel ! I have a 5" field barrel with red insert front sight ( I don't think they offer anymore ) that fits and interchanges beautifully with the pistol...that I use for small game hunting and pest control ( it holsters & carries well too ) ! Comparing apples to oranges...if I was interested or good enough for international pistol matches , I'd probably want a decked out Pardini match pistol as well ! I could care less what others prefer or like to snub their nose at....I'd rank the model 41 as one of the best investments I've made for my intentions and have also done well in good time local shoots !
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Old July 20, 2013, 02:55 PM   #47
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I bought a new M&P22 and it was a real junker. I sent it off for repair w/ a magazine. It came back w/ polishing marks all over the slide, replaced the recoil spring and the front sight. I was now missing magazine, but after a couple calls they made good on it. It was accurate before I sent it in so may be they dropped it (I don't know but its still accurate). It had more problems on the return. I would have to push the slide to get it to free up. I worked w/ it for awhile and it became tolerable but still had to contend w/ the periodic jam. Best ammo but still had problems was the CCI 40 grains. Then the Ob-ammo crunch hit and I haven't seen the CCI 40 grain yet. So I will be getting rid of it for a better 22 semi. I will think long an hard before I buy another M&P product again (probably never).
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Old July 20, 2013, 03:54 PM   #48
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Have a new S&W M&P22, it is as well put together as a Glock, very accurate (sub 1" groups) and shoots everything, including range pick-ups (you know the discarded 22 cartridges you find on the ground that have a firing pin dent in the base...duds... but they go boom in the M&P22). I consider the M&P22 a best buy, perfect for plinking, capable enough for SD.
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Old July 20, 2013, 04:48 PM   #49
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I like Smiths, never had a bad one.
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Old July 20, 2013, 05:33 PM   #50
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This is an odd thread.

This is the M&P the op said did not work well for him, it's the .22 caliber version of the gun. He said nothing about other versions of the M&P. He doesn't seem to know anything about them.

Second the man does not like the M41 either. He does not explain what was wrong with his gun or what problems he had with it. Unless he can do that I can have no sympathy.

He could have gone over to the Smith and Wesson forum and got some help and advice, but he does not mention that. I don't think he went there.

He did come here to complain after the fact.

He claims S&W is "failing in todays market". But by any real world measure that is incorrect. Their stock is up. They are profitable. They are selling a lot of guns, long and short. Their M&P line is wildly successful and has Glock on the run. If he is as accurate in describing that as he is in describing the problems he had we have a problem of believability.

Having said that I don't hear that their current M41s are as well made as the older ones. The M41 was a top competitor 20 and more years ago but the modern free pistols are more accurate and on the edge of competitive shooting. They still, out of the box, have a much better trigger than Rugers do out of the box.

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