The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 16, 2013, 09:16 AM   #26
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
Quote:
I do think you could glue a paper tube to the ring second up from the bottom on the projectile you pictured without it breaking off from the tube. Perhaps even higher up since you said the projectile went into the barrel's rifling only up to the topmost first ring. That leaves you all the other rings to glue to, even if you don't glue to the very bottom of the projectile.
Therein lies the problem. Finding something to form the cartridge paper around that is the same size as the bottom ring. I tried forming one a little bigger than the bullet but it came out too big to fully load into the chamber and the powder bunched up. For best results you need a hollow tube that the base of the bullet fits into snugly and is the same size as the bottom ring (the other two rings are smaller) so you can roll the paper around the bullet and the form together. It is exceedingly difficult to try to roll a cartridge around just the bullet and keep it anywhere near concentric.



Quote:
I'll find the research myself. If your research only consisted of people at forums writing, it probably didn't get into the precise lab science explanations I was seeking anyway to determine if it causes any overpressure safety concerns with heavy charges. Although sometimes there are some bonifide lab scientific results pressure scale data that is posted at online forums.

Good luck. In several months of searching I didn't find anything like that but maybe your google fu is better than mine.
Hawg is online now  
Old July 16, 2013, 09:49 AM   #27
Bill Akins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2007
Location: Hudson, Florida
Posts: 1,130
I understand. Perhaps if you could find a dowel that is the same size as the diameter of the bullet just below the bottom most ring, or maybe you could lathe out a dowel to the correct diameter. Maybe then you could put a tiny dab of fingernail polish or glue on the outer diameter of the base and then just roll the cartridge around the bullet like a cigarette paper is rolled around a filter, and so that the tube would be flush with the diameter of the bullet's base diameter and not as large as one of the rings that engages the rifling and then carry that paper cartridge flat in your cartridge pouch so there isn't any pressure on the projectile to break loose from the paper. Have you tried that yet?

Several reasons I am interested in data regarding air space behind the powder charge and projectile possibly causing overpressure safety problems is this.....

Quite often when I reload cases with smokeless or black powder, I don't load them that full to where the powder is right up against the bottom of the projectile's base when I seat and crimp the projectile. So when the cartridge lays in the chamber, the powder can lay down somewhat horizontally (if I am shooting fairly horizontally) and there would be an air space over the top of the powder behind the projectile or the air space could also be directly behind the powder if one were shooting downward, say at a snake. But that has never caused a problem. This is true of factory loaded ammo also. So if air spaces behind the projectile are supposed to be avoided due to possible overpressure problems, what about the air space in a cartridge that doesn't have its powder charge firmly up against the bottom of the projectile's base?
Something I have always wondered about.

Also in muzzleloaders we are taught that a projectile should always be seated firmly against the powder charge or it can cause an overpressure that could bulge or blow the cylinder or barrel. In a standard muzzleloading rifle, if the ball were to be much forward of the charge, creating an air space between the powder and the projectile, that can and has resulted in a bulge or blown barrel due to overpressure, so we know that to be a fact. So what is confusing is why doesn't that happen when a cartridge case isn't loaded to full capacity and the powder isn't right up against the projectile's base?

In the case of your Sharps, said air space is only BEHIND the powder when your barrel is pointed downward. But once you raise your Sharps to a horizontal position, the loose powder in the chamber levels out so that there is an air space over the TOP of the powder and also BEHIND the projectile say around half the diameter of the base of the projectile, just like in a cartridge that was not loaded to full powder capacity and was firing horizontally.

So there is a difference in where the air space is in that instance since it can either be over the top of the powder if shooting relatively horizontally, or behind the powder (if shooting downward). What I would like to know is if there data that shows any difference in relation to overpressure with an air space BEHIND the powder charge, or air space over the top of the powder and thus air space behind say half of the base of the projectile.

And if there isn't any overpressure concern with an air space laying over the top of the powder horizontally, and thus that would mean there was an air space over say half of the rear of the projectile, then if that doesn't cause an overpressure problem, then why does data teach us that an overpressure problem occurs if there is an air space between the powder and the projectile?

I'd like to find out the answer to these questions since a partially loaded cartridge case and the way your Sharps loads, would seem at first review, that it should cause an overpressure problem and I wonder why it doesn't or if it does and if it's just not that critical for some reason to where it doesn't cause bulging or blowing up of the barrel or chamber.

Even though your Sharps has some pressure release because of the thin line of space between your chamber and the breech block that could relieve some overpressure, just as the barrel to cylinder gap of a revolver could do, is that enough of a pressure release mechanism to prevent a bulged or blown barrel? And that still doesn't account for the same situation in a totally sealed breech autoloader with no pressure release that could lead to a blown off case rear.

So considering all that above, I wonder why it would seem that sometimes air spaces either between the powder and projectile, or just behind the powder, or on top of the powder and behind at least half the base of the projectile, do not cause the same overpressure problems that we are taught happens if we do not take care to seat the projectile completely against the powder in our smoke poles.

Interesting pressure questions that I have never seen the info/data that answered them for me.


.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 16, 2013 at 10:22 AM.
Bill Akins is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 10:30 AM   #28
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
I cant answer those questions. I've always loaded my bp cartridges with no airspace. I would assume that with pistol size cartridges and a reasonable load the airspace would be minimal and any over pressure would be negligible. If you load a muzzle loading rifle and leave an airspace the powder will still level off so the space is over the powder. The difference being the muzzleloader only has the nipple to vent the pressure and the bore size is the same as the ball. The Sharp's chamber is oversize and the breech is an imperfect seal even on originals and guns with a sliding chamber. I did wonder why the chamber was so much bigger than the bullet. Maybe that has something to do with it.
Hawg is online now  
Old July 16, 2013, 10:45 AM   #29
Bill Akins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2007
Location: Hudson, Florida
Posts: 1,130
Perhaps the answer is simply that a small amount of air space either only behind the powder itself, or over the powder and behind the projectile, or even BETWEEN the powder and the projectile, is not critical because the expanding gases quickly fills that small air space BEFORE any dangerous overpressure could occur. If so, that doesn't explain why we have always been admonished by the firearm scientists and manuals that we MUST fully seat the projectile against the powder charge in our smoke poles.

Unless they knew this and were just preaching to the lowest common sense denominator (and for liability purposes too) so that someone wouldn't foolishly load their ball only halfway down the barrel to where it WOULD become a problem since the gases had largely expanded and reached high pressure by the time they hit the projectile and thus it would act as an obstruction. Could it be that simple? If so, then the firearm scientists and firearm manuals have actually been preaching wrong to us just to make sure someone doesn't foolishly load their ball halfway down the barrel. Could that be it? Could it be that simple?



.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
Bill Akins is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 11:09 AM   #30
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
It very well could be but I'm not going to try it to find out.
Hawg is online now  
Old July 16, 2013, 08:16 PM   #31
sltm1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 343
Hawg, why not get a dowel (turn one down if oversized) the same size as the bottom band of the slug, (not the tail, full diameter). You could drill a hole in the end of the dowel to accept the tail and that way hold both pieces together while gluing both the seam and the paper to the bottom ring of the slug?
sltm1 is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 08:23 PM   #32
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
I thought about that. It would have to be 5/8 dowel tho. 1/2 is too small. Gonna have to wait until I go back to work. Money is too tight right now to buy one.
Hawg is online now  
Old December 30, 2016, 02:02 AM   #33
RentaCop
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13
Quote:

Therein lies the problem. Finding something to form the cartridge paper around that is the same size as the bottom ring. I tried forming one a little bigger than the bullet but it came out too big to fully load into the chamber and the powder bunched up. For best results you need a hollow tube that the base of the bullet fits into snugly and is the same size as the bottom ring (the other two rings are smaller) so you can roll the paper around the bullet and the form together. It is exceedingly difficult to try to roll a cartridge around just the bullet and keep it anywhere near concentric.
Try a fired Winchester short magnum case as the dowel.

Yes this thread is old.
RentaCop is offline  
Old December 30, 2016, 09:47 AM   #34
maillemaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,511
I recently traded a Pedersoli P53 for a Pedresoli Sharps. It could only get off about 10 shots before the action fouled up, but I sent it to Larry Flees and he did his action job and the first time I took it shooting I got off 89 consecutive shots with no change in performance. I highly recommend his work.

I'm shooting the Pedersoli 317-541 bullet, because I got the mold with the gun. It's ring tail is 1/2" in diameter which means I can use a standard 1/2" dowel for rolling cartridges.

I made cartridges using standard 20 pound computer paper, nitrated computer paper, and 17 pound recycled vellum. I think I like the vellum the best.

The standard paper does well, and only occasionally leaves ash/remnants in the chamber. The nitrated paper burns up more completely, seldom leaving ash/remnants in the chamber. But the nitrated paper makes me nervous. If you drop a spark on nitrated paper, it will immediately start to burn like a slow fuse. So if you were to push a non-nitrated cartridge onto a small ember, it would likely snuff it out. But if you push a nitrated cartridge onto a small ember, it is going to cook off.

I'm going to do some tests with the 3 kinds of cartridges and burn a piece of nitrated paper up to them and see which ones cook off. I fully expect the nitrated cartridge to go off.

The vellum cartridges fully consume and don't require nitrating.

This one is made of computer paper:


While it seems the old debate up-thread was resolved, Hawg is right - the Sharps is designed to handle an air gap and there is no way to eliminate it if you wanted to.

First of all the original cartridges are smaller in diameter than the chamber. So there is going to be air gap all around your cartridge as it sits in the chamber. Secondly and more importantly the breech block has a large cavity in it that guarantees an fixed volume of air in the chamber on loading - even if you filled the chamber to the rim full of powder.

My Sharps with 1/2" dowel-formed cartridges and this Pedersoli bullet will only hold 62 grains 3F Goex maximum.

These are my load workup results from 25 grains through 60 grains, off a bench at 50 yards:

25 grains through 40 grains:
http://imgur.com/nQViB1R

45 grains through 60 grains:
http://imgur.com/9M8llFq

30 grains actually gave the best group, but I think 45 grains is where I need to be. It shoots directly to point of aim and if I discount the flier it's just as good.

I've got another batch of 50 rounds of 45-grainers made up to test.

Steve
maillemaker is offline  
Old December 30, 2016, 10:51 AM   #35
JACKlangrishe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2016
Posts: 108
don't forget rolling papers - https://www.amazon.com/ELEMENTS-Ultr...dp/B0066WG7VW/
JACKlangrishe is offline  
Old December 30, 2016, 02:00 PM   #36
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
Quote:
don't forget rolling papers
I used plain old unnitrated wrapping paper.


Hawg is online now  
Old December 30, 2016, 06:06 PM   #37
RentaCop
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13
What caps are you all using? I'm have serious problems with cci musket caps not firing the cartridge.
RentaCop is offline  
Old December 30, 2016, 06:48 PM   #38
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
CCI musket caps are no good. They revamped them a few years ago for reenactor use. Get some RWS musket caps. The standard 10and 11 are fine.
Hawg is online now  
Old December 30, 2016, 07:11 PM   #39
RentaCop
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13
Thanks, ill order some RWS caps.
RentaCop is offline  
Old December 30, 2016, 10:33 PM   #40
maillemaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,511
I agree with Hawg. I have trouble with CCI caps in my Richmond Carbine as it has a right-angle fire channel. They will work OK with my Enfield as it is straight-through. But they were weakened after they got sued by a reenactor some years ago with an eye injury. RWS caps are all I use in competition. With the long and convoluted fire channel of the Sharps you'll need it.

Steve
maillemaker is offline  
Old December 30, 2016, 10:50 PM   #41
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
And a Sharp's doesn't do subs very well. Pyrodex will slow fire like a poorly timed flintlock. I didn't use anything but Swiss in mine.
Hawg is online now  
Old December 31, 2016, 02:41 AM   #42
Model12Win
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 4,080
I'd love a Sharp's rifle. I want the .45-70 version. Something not too decorative, something that you could "ride the river with" and rely on for defense or hunting in the deep country.
Model12Win is online now  
Old December 31, 2016, 02:17 PM   #43
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detai...ing-Rifle.html
Hawg is online now  
Old December 31, 2016, 02:57 PM   #44
roashooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Posts: 342
I lost interest in sharps long long time ago
roashooter is offline  
Old December 31, 2016, 06:33 PM   #45
Model12Win
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 4,080
Quote:
I lost interest in sharps long long time ago
Why? The Sharps is widely recognized as the greatest single shot rifle in human history... at least by people in Montana.
Model12Win is online now  
Old December 31, 2016, 08:40 PM   #46
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 13,939
Quote:
Quote:
I lost interest in sharps long long time ago


Why? The Sharps is widely recognized as the greatest single shot rifle in human history... at least by people in Montana.
When I got mine I said it would be the next to last rifle I ever sold but I sold it a few weeks ago. If it had been a cartridge model I'd probaby still have it tho.
Hawg is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.16391 seconds with 8 queries