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Old May 13, 2013, 02:31 PM   #26
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Until the situation happens, how do you know how many rounds is enough ?

Even, then less might have been enough, or you may be dead and however many you had wasn't enough.

Since you have no idea how many rounds IS enough, more is better. I would rather fire one round to resolve the situation and have 29 left in the magazine, than fire 8 and realize that wasn't enough. That being said, 30 might not be enough. There is absolutely no possible way to know how many is enough until the actual situation is over and analized.

For that matter, for the vast majority of people, zero is enough. They will never be in a situation to need any.

One more additional comment: the shotgun MAY not have ultimate power, but it comes about as close as anything you might own to having ultimate power. Based on my personal experience of treating people who have been shot: I would put my faith in a shotgun.
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Old May 13, 2013, 04:25 PM   #27
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I think 8 to 10 in a Pump Shotgun is optimal because You can top it off as You go, but You can not single top the M1 Garand, or the Sks as efficiently as with the Shotgun during a high stress situation. Just My thoughts on the subject.
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Old May 13, 2013, 04:52 PM   #28
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I don't see any problem using an SKS or a Garand for the job. They are great rifles and few can deny that. They are, however, extremely heavy.
It's funny how a 9 lb. M1 Garand is so much heavier than a 9 lb. AR-15 with tactical doo-dads.
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Old May 13, 2013, 05:11 PM   #29
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Fish bed has a point there. The other issue is length of course. A garand is a pretty lengthy piece to be swinging around corners inside a house. Some shotguns are better for that. A pistol of course is even better but with a serious firepower tradeoff.
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Old May 13, 2013, 09:18 PM   #30
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Some of us live in the country and it may take 45 minutes before the cavalry arrives. Sometimes 30 rounds aren't enough. Quick reloads are easy when the clip/mag is in your hand or in a quick holster as in a competition rig. In a firefight you will have to pull reload from a pouch then reload under fire. A few more steps then the controlled environment on the range.

There is a reason the police carry AR-15s in their cars with 30 round mags. They are going after those really bad guys. You know, the ones that are breakin' into folks homes.

As a combat veteran, I do know that I feel better with more firepower than needed than less when pinned down under fire.

I do believe that 10 is enough as long as you do have a setup that enables you to grab those clips quickly. But, 30 is better.


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Old May 13, 2013, 10:00 PM   #31
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You people who don't think a Garand would work, go watch an infantry match.

I've seen some pretty impressive shooting. You start at the 600 yard line and have 50 seconds to get as many "Hits" as possible. Two targets, its nothing to see guys get off 24 rounds out of a Garand in that time limit and with decent hits. That's after a two mile run., then they move to 500 and do it again, then at 300 & 200.
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Old May 14, 2013, 06:04 AM   #32
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How about because as a civilian I could possibly face the same threat or threats the police could face so then I ask you why do police need AR-15s with multiple 30round magizines? Is my life as a civilian not worth as much as a police officers? The police are not first responders you are the first responder.
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Old May 14, 2013, 06:16 AM   #33
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Contrary to the hype you hear, you can miss with a shotgun, quite easily I might add.

The shot doesn't scatter that much, especially not at typical self defense ranges.
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Old May 14, 2013, 06:22 AM   #34
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I'm not a Veteran.Late 60's I had the great fortune of being a training aide for an Army ROTC outfit in Northern Colorado.Our cadre officer was a RANGER,had been a platoon leader 1st Infantry.Michelin's rubber trees.I carried an M-1 pretty far.It was our job to be the guerrilla.

In the dark,infiltrating,sneaky pete stuff,under barbed wire,through bushes,being low,the M-1 was a lot nicer to crawl and slither with.Protruding box magazines can be awkward.And,you can shoot with your head and belly sucked lower into the ground.

Those old horned toads with Garands are dangerous.When they run out of bullets,they put bayonets on them.
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Old May 14, 2013, 07:31 AM   #35
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Why Aren't 8 Shots Enough?
Man, I absolutely hate drive-bys, when someone posts a comment on controversial subject, sit back (for 3 days), and watch the do-do fly. Kinda like yelling fire in a theater, eh?

The proper answer is - It depends on your situation. 8 rounds for WHAT? Hell, in some situations, a long gun isn't even the right choice!
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Old May 14, 2013, 07:41 AM   #36
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Why Aren't 8 Shots Enough?

At 3 am stumbling around the house in my underwear, having the clips for a Garand stuffed into my G-string kinda hurts. ;-)

Doubt anyone is going to fast reload in their house at 3am, who really has reloads and hand even?

But what do I know. I'm so old I think pistol gripped shotguns and HiPowers are still useable. I'd say use what you prefer and are comfortable and confident with for SD.

Beware the man with one gun...

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Old May 14, 2013, 07:58 AM   #37
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As to shotguns vs rifles.

I teach a weekly ladies firearm safety and self defense class.

Just after Uncle Joe came out with his "all you need is a double barreled shot gun" rant the ladies asked me about the shotgun and or rifle.

I wouldn't tell them, instead I brought a shot gun and rifle to the class and had them try them both.

EVERY lady in the class did better with the rifle. They didn't like shooting the shotgun because of recoil (and I was using light trap loads). This was an in door range so I couldn't use an AR but instead I let them shoot a Marlin 94 38/357. Now that its warming up I'll take them outside and let them try the AR.

What I did was had each woman measure their house, figuring the farthest distance they would shoot. Some had smaller homes so the spread of the shotguns wouldn't be a problem. A couple had larger homes and the spread would put others in danger even if they hit the bandit.

All had no problem getting good hits with the rifle at normal SD shooting in the home.

One scenario was to pretend that the bandit got one of their kids and held them as a hostage. I have a hostage target for them to shoot. NON had any problem hitting the bandit portion of the target with the rifle. You can guess what happened when it was attempted with a shotgun.

When you try to choose between a shotgun or rifle, instead of going by what's said on the internet, get one of each and go to the range and see for your self. Take measurements of you home and use that distance to set up your targets.

I like the M1/M14 but they are over kill for SD. AR, or carbine type rifles (Marlin/Henry Levers) are a different story altogether. Also the M1 Carbine, but they are getting hard to find at reasonable prices. AR's are fine, just look at how many more women and juniors have gotten into and are doing great in High Power Matches since the AR's replaced the M14/M1A's in those matches.

Before you buy a dedicated SD rifle/shotgun, go out and shot one, take your wife or who ever else may have to use it out and see if they can shoot it.

Most women don't like shotguns and face it, we may not be home and self defense may be left to the Misses.

Don't tell anyone what is the best SD rifle/pistol/shotgun for SD, we're all different. Give them a variety of choices, let them shoot them based on their situation and what they can shoot best.

An example, someone mentioned rural areas. I live in a rural area, I can shoot a long ways. I'd be perfectly happy and feel save with a bolt gun.

Come visit and watch me shoot a M1903A3 with stripper clips and then tell me its too slow. But not everyone practices rapid fire with a bolt gun and fewer yet use stripper clips. Having said that, I feel perfectly safe sticking to my J-frame. Not sure you can justify a 600 yard shot as self defense.
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Old May 14, 2013, 08:44 AM   #38
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I may be biased, but I still just can't understand this.
Gee, "M1Rifle30-06" why would you think that?

Why is 8 shots from a Garand (or 10 shots from an SKS or other 8-10 shot semi auto rifle) is considered sub-par for a "go-to" rifle by most people, but 6-8 shots from a much slower and higher recoiling 12 gauge pump action shotgun is considered optimal?
Who are these "most people"? The VP? I don't personally know anyone who thinks that.

There's 30-06 and .308 loads that penetrate less than buckshot, cause massive tissue damage, and you get more range and a reliable semi automatic action, not to mention faster reload.
Please show me the .308 loading that penetrates less than buckshot while causing more tissue damage and assuredly getting more range.

Granted, a Garand is a bit longer than a shotgun, but the point still stands.
There are lots of shotguns longer than a Garand.
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:23 AM   #39
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People keep talking about justifying long range shots. If you live in the country, it isn't always Joe-Blow McBadguy that is a threat to you and yours. Coyotes, wild pigs, feral dogs and the like all need shooting too. Waiting for some of those animals to come into "justifiable SD range" is ridiculous. Keeping a long gun for defense of the home and another for the fields is ridiculous too. If it's got thirty rounds of 5.56 or eight rounds of .30-06, either one will do fine.

You might even get by with a shotgun...
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Last edited by Evan Thomas; May 15, 2013 at 08:22 AM. Reason: removed snark.
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Old May 14, 2013, 11:16 AM   #40
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Willie, I have defended my Home against two attacker with a .22 Rifle. I didnt have to fire it, but the presence of the Rifle caused the attackers to flee until the Police arrived and arrested them. Any Gun is better than no Gun. That was several Years ago but I often think of how bad it would have been if My Wife and I had not had that .22
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Old May 14, 2013, 11:37 AM   #41
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10 is enough

I feel well armed with a SKS 10rd mag and a 45 7rd mag. high cap mags have been around since WW1 and the dough boys of WW1 carred 5 shot bolt rifles and did not cry for 20rd BARs for everyone .
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Old May 14, 2013, 11:52 AM   #42
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Sense a situation wasn't really given on this subject, I'll just use home protection as the situation. I personally have a 17 round 9mm by my night stand and a 5 shot pump 12 gauge close by as well. Having more than 8 rounds is a great idea because I'd rather not need it and have it than need it and not have it. That being said. I personally feel safe with the above mentioned. I believe I can do my part against the possible home evasion.
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Old May 14, 2013, 11:57 AM   #43
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this is just me but I prefer the knowledge that I don't have to reload as often should I need rapid followup shots on multiple targets. this is for scenarios that have almost no chance at all at of ever happening where you find yourself in the middle of a warzone but it is still nice to have for say sd against larger non human assailants. also, the 12 pound garand is a little less convenient than a 7 pound AR15 or 9 pound M14 clone.
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Old May 15, 2013, 10:36 AM   #44
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Use what you want, I'll stick with my easy handling 12ga ten fold over a M14 or M1.
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Old May 15, 2013, 03:01 PM   #45
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I'm not understanding why this is a one-or-the-other issue. Lots of us own multiple rifles. Hell, some of us own both rifles AND shotguns. No reason you can't factor multiple longarms into your HD/SD plans, particularly if you are using a layered defense plan. The only thing that's essential, as far as I'm concerned, is that any firearm that is a part of your plan be one that you are extremely well-trained with and can function, fire, reload (and clear, if necessary) in the dark. Aside from that, this is like chefs arguing over whether a chef's knife or a santoku is better in the kitchen.
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Old May 16, 2013, 08:02 AM   #46
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the 12 pound garand is a little less convenient...
You need to put your Garand on a diet, everyone else Garand weighs a hair over 9 lbs.
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Old May 16, 2013, 10:29 AM   #47
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Kraig, don't forget those M1's and M14's that were rebarreled with thicker ones filling out with as much barrel steel as possible as well as lead-shot filled epoxy poured into the butt stock holes under the butt plate to make 12-pound service rifles. And some stocks were thicker than standard service ones. There was never a rule on weight limit. Those heavy ones held much more steady in all three shooting postions as well as reducing felt recoil.

Some M14 and M1A magazines even had lead-shot filled epoxy in them to add even more weight. I've shouldered and fired a few built this way. They hold very still in standing/offhand just like a 14-pound 300 metre free rifle complete with palm rest. Especially those magazines filled almost to the top for single round loading.
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Old May 16, 2013, 01:17 PM   #48
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What I got from the OP was that he was trying to understand why anyone would consider the 8shots (or 10) to be sub par from a rifle, but just fine in a shotgun.

And while there is no denying that the M1 Garand is a fine battle implement, and a good rifle, there are other rifles today with equal performance down range that have higher magazine capacities.

Several have made the point about the M1 (and SKS) being heavy. And, they are. BUT there is a reason for this. They are designed to fight with. Not just shoot. Not just survive and function after all the bangs and knocks, but to be able to both be useful and functional in hand to hand combat as well.

That's something no one seems to remember, and virtually never takes into account when looking at rifles for personal (civilian) defense. Odds are none of us will ever need a rifle capable of blocking an enemy bayonet thrust and deleivering an effective counterstroke, and then still be capable of fuction and reasonable accuracy.

Modern armies took lessons from WWII, and nations moved away from durable, ruggedly constructed arms in favor of lighter, more easily mass produced weapons. This works for a military, supported by national armories and factories, with replacement systems built in for combat losses.

And those lighter designed and built weapons work just fine for shooting machines, and (legal versions) serve civilian needs as well, as its more than rare for regular citizens to use a rifle in hand to hand combat. Generally, at that close range, we just shoot 'em.

Why do you think all those millions of Krags, Springfields, Mausers, Arisakas, Enfields, etc got sporterized to one degree of another? Not just to make them look better, (although when well done, it was a side effect)but to make them lighter. Deer and varmint hunters weren't going to be fighting with the rifles, all we were going to be doing was shooting them. So we didn't need the extra weight to lug about.
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
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Old May 16, 2013, 03:46 PM   #49
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Because most people seem to think that they are going to be attacked by a whole mechanized infantry division when they plan out their home defense plan.
Hahaha, straw man but funny nonetheless

If you can't protect yourself with 8 shots, you are either going to be out gunned and lose anyway, or you'll have a hard job explaining the situation in court.
A) I'd rather be alive in court then dead with an empty magazine
B) Many people own businesses with a large amount of cash flow. While a 30 round magazine might not be "theoretically" needed, it sure as hell is when you own a Jewelry store.

Most importantly, whose decision is that to make, mine or the gov't?
Just like the need to protect your property from a masked gun man 300yards away. Since when do armed burglars start their heist by laying down suppressive fire from 300yards away.
This made me laugh out loud. Good point, but some people (like myself) want my SD/HD platform to have other uses than sitting in my closet. Not everyone has the capital for multiple firearms to invest in for specific purposes.

EDIT: And as is tradition, 44 Amp has my favorite post in the thread
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Old May 16, 2013, 04:53 PM   #50
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"Why aren't eight shots enough?"

Because I can't guarantee that I have good enough markmanship skills to take out 4 bad guy's --- that have a violent intent on putting me down --- with just eight shots from a rifle. Shotgun? Maybe... but it would probably need to be a close encounter scenario. Besides...I'm a spray and pray type of guy, especially when it's my job to provide suppressive fire to an enemy --- inorder to keep there heads down --- so my good guys can escape and relocate from a possible hellish situation. Try that with just 8 shots...and I'll just about guarantee failure.
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