Dropping that shot?

Death from Afar · April 13, 2013, 04:16 AM

I always shoot rather well with a .44 Magnum Revolver, but with my Kimber, am always shooting low, and slightly to the left ( its not the sights- I have ruled that out)...how to I change my stance to fix that? Thanks, any thought welcome.

MTSCMike · April 13, 2013, 08:49 AM

Classic anticipation flinch...(aka jerking the trigger). It is a bit odd you don't do it with the 44 but that is still what it is. I know because my name is Mike and I'm a recovering "jerk-a-holic".

Stance is not likely to be the problem but grip and trigger control could be culprits. You don't mention your experience level or current shooting style. Was all your previous experience with revolvers? Your Kimber has a short trigger pull that is probably about 5 pounds or so. Your revolver, when fired single action, may actually have a better trigger. The group location you describe is common for people who are new to shooting the 1911 platform.

You need to develop a proper grip for the 1911 (see on-line videos by Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett, David Sevigney, etc). Concentrate on aligning the sights with all your focus on the front sight and SQUEEZE the trigger until the gun fires. You should not be able to tell when the gun will fire. If you KNOW when it will fire you are jerking the trigger. Do only slow, deliberate fire until you work through the problem. If you doubt the diagnosis, have a friend go to the range with you...have them load your Kimber and hand it to you cocked and locked with a round in the chamber ready to go...then, every now and then, they should hand it to you exactly that way except with the chamber empty. You will be shocked at the result when you pull that trigger.

You can cure this but it takes work and mental toughness. It can be a difficult thing to deal with but it has been done.

Sarge · April 13, 2013, 09:15 AM

I don't own a firearm that has not been zeroed for me and the way I shoot. Ammunition is too damned expensive. Zero the Kimber and enjoy it.

Cesure · April 13, 2013, 10:02 AM

My CPL instructor gave us a target that had segments indicating problems that caused deviation in all directions around the center. Assuming you are right handed, beginning on the left and proceeding to straight down, the problems are listed as:

L) Too little Trigger Finger
LD) Tightening Fingers
DL) Jerking or Slapping Trigger
D) Breaking Wrist Down, Pushing Forward or Drooping Head

Continuing around the circle counterclockwise:

DR) Tightening Grip While Pulling Trigger
R) Thumbing (squeezing thumb) or Too Much Trigger Finger
UR) Heeling (anticipating recoil)
U) Breaking Wrist Up
UL) Pushing (anticipating recoil) or No Follow Through

For left handed shooters switch the L and R in the above.

It's interesting that in the lower left quadrant there are four zones while in the other quadrants there are only three.

orionengnr · April 13, 2013, 08:01 PM

It has been stated repeatedly that the "segmented diagnostic target" was designed for, and is only accurate for diagnosing, one handed, Bullseye-type shooting.

treg · April 13, 2013, 09:08 PM

That's why I'm such a proponent of adjustable sights. POI can be adjusted to POA for your hands, style, grip and the ammo of choice.

Pistol sights are not "one size fits all".

Not sure how one would "rule out the sights".(?)

Ben Dover · April 13, 2013, 09:59 PM

In a word, trigger control.

Make up some dummy rounds and have a friend load your magazines.

But be prepared to be embarrassed.

Death from Afar · April 13, 2013, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Not sure how one would "rule out the sights".(?)

Why, by slow, careful, deliberate fire.

Sarge · April 13, 2013, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orionengnr

It has been stated repeatedly that the "segmented diagnostic target" was designed for, and is only accurate for diagnosing, one handed, Bullseye-type shooting.

Agreed.

I designed a more contemporary one

Death from Afar · April 14, 2013, 03:26 AM

That is excellent, Sarge.

WESHOOT2 · April 14, 2013, 08:00 PM

I start by shooting with my other hand.....

If unsuccesful, I have another shooter of known skill shoot my gun, to confirm its problem is either the gun, or (really) me....
(This method found the .011" "clearance" at the muzzle of one of my 1911s.)

TailGator · April 15, 2013, 10:16 AM

Sarge's chart is great.

But even with two handed grips, don't you think that the low-left shot is most often because the shooter is lunging at the trigger? I know I can still get into that bad habit occasionally, and I know that is the problem from dry fire practice, which can be both diagnostic and therapeutic.

Death from Afar · April 16, 2013, 01:25 AM

Lunging the trigger? As in not pressing?

TailGator · April 16, 2013, 09:57 AM

Yeah, lunging at the trigger is what I call it in my head, and it came out at my hands. Jerking the trigger to "make" the pistol fire instead of smoothly pressing the trigger and "allowing" it to fire.

Bob Wright · April 16, 2013, 08:23 PM

Death from afar wrote:

Quote:

I always shoot rather well with a .44 Magnum Revolver, but with my Kimber, am always shooting low, and slightly to the left ( its not the sights- I have ruled that out)...how to I change my stance to fix that? Thanks, any thought welcome.

You should not have to "change your stance" to compensate for a different gun.

Try this: Locate a second bullseye directly opposite from where your groups are hitting. For example you say your groups are low left, place your new aiming point high right the same distance from your bullseye. If your groups are now centered in your intended target, it your sights that need adjusting.

If you are doing anything wrong, your groups will open up like a shotgun pattern. If you are shooting good groups, its your sights.

Bob Wright

Wreck-n-Crew · April 16, 2013, 09:31 PM

This is for right hand shooting left.
I have seen this before when shooting a big revolver for a long time. Don't know if that's the case or not here but trigger placement is so different between the two.

Your fingernail must always lineup with the center of the trigger and if you have been use to stretching your finger out to reach a trigger on a big 44mag, you may be curling your finger around the trigger. This will have you shooting left every time.

Grab it the way you have been use to and don't think about it. Put your finger on the trigger, pull it then check your finger placement. The first joint (bend/crook) in your trigger finger should never ouch the trigger.

If you are left handed,shooting left of target, you need to stop riding the outside edge of the trigger and move inward till the fingernail is in the center of the trigger.

treg · April 17, 2013, 05:17 AM

Quote:

You should not have to "change your stance" to compensate for a different gun.

Try this: Locate a second bullseye directly opposite from where your groups are hitting. For example you say your groups are low left, place your new aiming point high right the same distance from your bullseye. If your groups are now centered in your intended target, it your sights that need adjusting.

If you are doing anything wrong, your groups will open up like a shotgun pattern. If you are shooting good groups, its your sights.

Bob Wright

+1

Wreck-n-Crew · April 17, 2013, 08:48 AM

Quote:

If you are shooting good groups, its your sights.

That is if your finger is placed correctly.
I went from big Revolvers to semi-autos and shot left in a group every time until someone said, hey don't adjust the sights on the new gun, your finger in wrongly placed.

I wasn't even aware i was doing it. Fingernail middle of trigger, g\ripping right, squeezing not jerking, and still hitting left then you can adjust.

Otherwise you will adjust sites on every gun you buy...

Quote:

This is for right hand shooting left.
I have seen this before when shooting a big revolver for a long time. Don't know if that's the case or not here but trigger placement is so different between the two.

Your fingernail must always lineup with the center of the trigger and if you have been use to stretching your finger out to reach a trigger on a big 44mag, you may be curling your finger around the trigger. This will have you shooting left every time.

Grab it the way you have been use to and don't think about it. Put your finger on the trigger, pull it then check your finger placement. The first joint (bend/crook) in your trigger finger should never touch the trigger.

If you are left handed,shooting left of target, you need to stop riding the outside edge of the trigger and move inward till the fingernail is in the center of the trigger.

Sarge · April 17, 2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Some closing thoughts-

You zero to a single, specific load. If you change bullet weights, your zero will change right along with it. Pick a ‘zero load’ that’s readily available and does what you need. I stick with 158 grain in .38/.357, 180 grain in .40 and 230 grain in .45 ACP.

When zeroing your pistol, SHOOT OFF A SOLID REST! We are not showing off here; we are removing as much human error as possible.

Be CONSISTENT in your hold, sight alignment and trigger squeeze when zeroing. You need to learn these things anyhow and the bench is a good place to start.

The Importance of 'Zero'

Erno86 · April 17, 2013, 03:30 PM

Assuming you're a right handed shooter: You shot low left...because you tried to snatch the shot. You had your sights aligned on the bullseye for a moment...you jerked the trigger at that same moment --- instead of accepting the wobble of your sight picture --- and simply pressing the trigger straight back.

You drop the shot...because there is a tightness in your shoulders --- when your subconscious tries to anticipate the recoil of the gun --- buy the dropping of your shoulders, which is sometimes called dipping. Everbody dips once in a while...it all depends how much and how frequent.

Relax your shoulders, breathe and press the trigger straight back.

Skitter · April 17, 2013, 04:10 PM

I found on my Cougar I was shooting the same, I started wrapping my Left finger around the front of the trigger guard to compensate, since it had the serrations anyways

AL45 · April 21, 2013, 08:55 PM

I have a problem anticipating the shot and fighting recoil by pulling the gun down. Somewhere I read to slowly count from 1 to whatever as you slowly squeeze the trigger. The object is to get your mind on counting and off of the upcoming recoil. When I remember to do it, it seems to help.

Departed402 · April 22, 2013, 09:35 AM

Quote:

dummy rounds

DUMMY ROUNDS! There is a lot of little things that could be going wrong (improper grip, pad of the finger not on the trigger etc.), but dummy rounds will make the jerks apparent.

oldgunsmith · April 22, 2013, 03:26 PM

Have you tried shooting it off sand bags?

45_auto · April 22, 2013, 05:01 PM

Do your Beretta M9 and Neos also shoot low and left for you?

As others have stated, it is very unlikely that anything to do with your stance is affecting the point of impact of your Kimber if it's not affecting the M9 and the Neos.

You just need to adjust the sights on the Kimber.

April 13, 2013, 04:16 AM	#1
Death from Afar Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND Posts: 1,635	Dropping that shot? I always shoot rather well with a .44 Magnum Revolver, but with my Kimber, am always shooting low, and slightly to the left ( its not the sights- I have ruled that out)...how to I change my stance to fix that? Thanks, any thought welcome. __________________ "Beware of the Man with one gun...he probably isnt into guns enough to be safe with it".

April 13, 2013, 08:49 AM	#2
MTSCMike Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2011 Location: Middle TN Posts: 164	Classic anticipation flinch...(aka jerking the trigger). It is a bit odd you don't do it with the 44 but that is still what it is. I know because my name is Mike and I'm a recovering "jerk-a-holic". Stance is not likely to be the problem but grip and trigger control could be culprits. You don't mention your experience level or current shooting style. Was all your previous experience with revolvers? Your Kimber has a short trigger pull that is probably about 5 pounds or so. Your revolver, when fired single action, may actually have a better trigger. The group location you describe is common for people who are new to shooting the 1911 platform. You need to develop a proper grip for the 1911 (see on-line videos by Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett, David Sevigney, etc). Concentrate on aligning the sights with all your focus on the front sight and SQUEEZE the trigger until the gun fires. You should not be able to tell when the gun will fire. If you KNOW when it will fire you are jerking the trigger. Do only slow, deliberate fire until you work through the problem. If you doubt the diagnosis, have a friend go to the range with you...have them load your Kimber and hand it to you cocked and locked with a round in the chamber ready to go...then, every now and then, they should hand it to you exactly that way except with the chamber empty. You will be shocked at the result when you pull that trigger. You can cure this but it takes work and mental toughness. It can be a difficult thing to deal with but it has been done. __________________ IDPA Member A00640 Founding Charter Member - Middle Tennessee Shooter's Club

April 13, 2013, 09:15 AM	#3
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I don't own a firearm that has not been zeroed for me and the way I shoot. Ammunition is too damned expensive. Zero the Kimber and enjoy it. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

April 13, 2013, 09:08 PM	#6
treg Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2006 Posts: 1,102	That's why I'm such a proponent of adjustable sights. POI can be adjusted to POA for your hands, style, grip and the ammo of choice. Pistol sights are not "one size fits all". Not sure how one would "rule out the sights".(?) __________________ .44 Special: For those who get it, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is possible.

April 13, 2013, 09:59 PM	#7
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	In a word, trigger control. Make up some dummy rounds and have a friend load your magazines. But be prepared to be embarrassed. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

April 13, 2013, 10:02 AM	#4
Cesure Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2013 Posts: 132	My CPL instructor gave us a target that had segments indicating problems that caused deviation in all directions around the center. Assuming you are right handed, beginning on the left and proceeding to straight down, the problems are listed as: L) Too little Trigger Finger LD) Tightening Fingers DL) Jerking or Slapping Trigger D) Breaking Wrist Down, Pushing Forward or Drooping Head Continuing around the circle counterclockwise: DR) Tightening Grip While Pulling Trigger R) Thumbing (squeezing thumb) or Too Much Trigger Finger UR) Heeling (anticipating recoil) U) Breaking Wrist Up UL) Pushing (anticipating recoil) or No Follow Through For left handed shooters switch the L and R in the above. It's interesting that in the lower left quadrant there are four zones while in the other quadrants there are only three.

April 13, 2013, 08:01 PM	#5
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,177	It has been stated repeatedly that the "segmented diagnostic target" was designed for, and is only accurate for diagnosing, one handed, Bullseye-type shooting.

April 14, 2013, 03:26 AM	#10
Death from Afar Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND Posts: 1,635	That is excellent, Sarge. __________________ "Beware of the Man with one gun...he probably isnt into guns enough to be safe with it".

April 14, 2013, 08:00 PM	#11
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	I start by shooting with my other hand..... If unsuccesful, I have another shooter of known skill shoot my gun, to confirm its problem is either the gun, or (really) me.... (This method found the .011" "clearance" at the muzzle of one of my 1911s.) __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

April 15, 2013, 10:16 AM	#12
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	Sarge's chart is great. But even with two handed grips, don't you think that the low-left shot is most often because the shooter is lunging at the trigger? I know I can still get into that bad habit occasionally, and I know that is the problem from dry fire practice, which can be both diagnostic and therapeutic.

April 16, 2013, 01:25 AM	#13
Death from Afar Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND Posts: 1,635	Lunging the trigger? As in not pressing? __________________ "Beware of the Man with one gun...he probably isnt into guns enough to be safe with it".

April 16, 2013, 09:57 AM	#14
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	Yeah, lunging at the trigger is what I call it in my head, and it came out at my hands. Jerking the trigger to "make" the pistol fire instead of smoothly pressing the trigger and "allowing" it to fire.

April 16, 2013, 09:31 PM	#16
Wreck-n-Crew Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,820	This is for right hand shooting left. I have seen this before when shooting a big revolver for a long time. Don't know if that's the case or not here but trigger placement is so different between the two. Your fingernail must always lineup with the center of the trigger and if you have been use to stretching your finger out to reach a trigger on a big 44mag, you may be curling your finger around the trigger. This will have you shooting left every time. Grab it the way you have been use to and don't think about it. Put your finger on the trigger, pull it then check your finger placement. The first joint (bend/crook) in your trigger finger should never ouch the trigger. If you are left handed,shooting left of target, you need to stop riding the outside edge of the trigger and move inward till the fingernail is in the center of the trigger. __________________ If you ever have to use a firearm, *you don't get to pick the scenario!*

April 17, 2013, 03:30 PM	#20
Erno86 Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2012 Location: Marriottsville, Maryland Posts: 1,739	Assuming you're a right handed shooter: You shot low left...because you tried to snatch the shot. You had your sights aligned on the bullseye for a moment...you jerked the trigger at that same moment --- instead of accepting the wobble of your sight picture --- and simply pressing the trigger straight back. You drop the shot...because there is a tightness in your shoulders --- when your subconscious tries to anticipate the recoil of the gun --- buy the dropping of your shoulders, which is sometimes called dipping. Everbody dips once in a while...it all depends how much and how frequent. Relax your shoulders, breathe and press the trigger straight back. __________________ That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --- George Orwell

April 17, 2013, 04:10 PM	#21
Skitter Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2013 Location: NW Houston TX Posts: 156	I found on my Cougar I was shooting the same, I started wrapping my Left finger around the front of the trigger guard to compensate, since it had the serrations anyways __________________ Raised with guns only to realize how much I DIDN'T know. Newly acquired personal inventory is increasing, feed my obsession for knowledge!

April 21, 2013, 08:55 PM	#22
AL45 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2012 Posts: 761	I have a problem anticipating the shot and fighting recoil by pulling the gun down. Somewhere I read to slowly count from 1 to whatever as you slowly squeeze the trigger. The object is to get your mind on counting and off of the upcoming recoil. When I remember to do it, it seems to help.

April 22, 2013, 03:26 PM	#24
oldgunsmith Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2013 Posts: 278	Have you tried shooting it off sand bags?

April 22, 2013, 05:01 PM	#25
45_auto Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2011 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 1,399	Do your Beretta M9 and Neos also shoot low and left for you? As others have stated, it is very unlikely that anything to do with your stance is affecting the point of impact of your Kimber if it's not affecting the M9 and the Neos. You just need to adjust the sights on the Kimber.