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Old March 1, 2013, 12:09 AM   #1
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Use of force training; concealed firearms...

I watched a few new media clips of a use-of-force event in central Florida(Orlando area).
A armed citizen/W license holder(concealed firearm) shot at a Walmart shoplifter in a crowded parking lot.
The armed citizen(unknown firearm model, unknown ammunition type) was arrested on several criminal charges by the local sheriff's office.
The subject took a few items(meat, steaks) and was contacted by Walmart's loss prevention officers at the front of the store. The subject fled & the armed citizen got involved.
The video & news reports are on a few outlets now. I'm not super web savvy & can't put up the full video links but another TFLer may help, .

It's important to keep in mind the use of force laws & training standards when carrying a loaded firearm. Please address the issue with any new concealed carry permit or license holders you meet/know.
The huge wave of new gun owners will cause more incidents like this if people do not get formal gun or skills/tactics training.
We(gun owners & 2A supporters) need to avoid bad PR and mishaps as much as we can.
Yes, there are a lot untrained & reckless gun owners out there but groups like the NRA & forums like TFL can help educate-inform new gun owners.

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Old March 1, 2013, 11:48 AM   #2
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Dumb ass.

Well its the reason I went and got my NRA pistol instructor cert.
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Old March 1, 2013, 12:36 PM   #3
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What an idiot. One article claims the shooter said he was just trying to mark the car so the cops could identify it.
A Florida man taking justice into his own hands is now in trouble for shooting at a suspected shoplifter’s car yesterday as the man fled a local Walmart. He says he just wanted to mark the car so cops would be able to find it later, reports the Daytona News-Journal.
Another article states he was trying to defend himself as the driver tried to run him over. He probably made this statement after talking to his lawyer. That page has video of the incident as well but I couldn't make out who was doing the shooting.
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Old March 1, 2013, 01:38 PM   #4
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<smh> somebody obviously never learned those 4 little rules about firearm safety...
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Old March 1, 2013, 06:48 PM   #5
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Well, I get a LOT of flack for this from fellow gun-toters, but this is WHY I strongly believe proper training should be mandatory in EVERY State before the issuance of a CCW or LTCH to anyone. Likewise, they should be required to (re) qualify periodically; IMO, at least bi-annually (same with LEO's) at the absolutely minimum.

Of course, I ALSO strongly believe that, once that proper training has been received and that proficiency demonstrated, the CCW holder should be mandated to carry in any and every State without exception, with few restrictions.

On the other hand, I'm one of those 'whacky guys' that believe there's more than a small portion of LEO's that aren't sufficiently trained, qualified, and proficient, LOL. C'mon, you know. You've been out on the firing line with 'em at some point or other haven't ya? LOL...

Last edited by ModernGunner; March 1, 2013 at 06:50 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old March 1, 2013, 07:20 PM   #6
Frank Ettin
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Let's stay away from the "mandatory training" debate.

But the event should illustrate for everyone the importance of good training, especially covering the legal aspects of the use of force. The responsible gun owner will recognize the importance of such an education and seek it out on his own initiative.
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
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Old March 1, 2013, 07:33 PM   #7
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FE's post...

By they, I mean the prosecutors and/or the local sworn LE agency that will conduct the criminal investigation in a post-incident use of force.
2012's George Zimmerman-Treyvon Martin incident in Sanford Florida is a good example.
The lead detective in Sanford PD wanted to put criminal charges on Zimmerman but the prosecutors(Florida States Atty Office) said; no.

The detective later requested to go from investigations back to regular patrol due to the high profile event.
Many people in the general public(who are not in law enforcement or the US criminal justice system) do not understand all the factors involved in a citizen use of force.
It's not like Law & Order or some Hollywood movie.
There is stress, emotion, anxiety, injury(sometimes), and a possible financial burden after a lethal force event. Gun writer, sworn LE officer & legal expert in use of force; Massad Ayoob has written many magazine articles about the topic.

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Old March 4, 2013, 12:55 PM   #8
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Some people simply do not have the emotional control or common sense necessary to carry a firearm responsibly, its not much deeper than that.

Its not always a training issue. Some people are too easily provoked into using force, others are unable to reasonably measure their force and fail to stop when appropriate. On the flip side of the coin, there are those who no matter their good intent- will freeze when force is necessary. Its just how some people are wired.
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
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Old March 4, 2013, 05:23 PM   #9
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LTC David Grossman; On Combat, On Killing...

That's a good point but it goes back to the proper mindset.
Lethal or deadly force means being able to KILL a violent attacker or subject in a critical incident.
This is what LTC David Grossman(US Army, retired, PhD) described as a "personal kill". Grossman's books; On Killing(2009 ed) & On Combat go into more detail.
Time & speed are elements of a critical incident too. I go by what I call the 3x3x3 Rule; that most lethal force events that involve CCW or armed citizens(not armed professionals, sworn LE or military forces) will be; 3 rounds fired(by both sides) in 3sec at approx 3ft.

Training & mindset BEFORE a critical incident can go a long way. Understanding the state/local use of force laws & knowing when to be a "good witness" is important too.

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Old March 4, 2013, 05:52 PM   #10
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I'm with Fireforged. "You can't fix stupid."
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Old March 4, 2013, 07:24 PM   #11
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My opinion (and what I teach) is no property (excluding home invasion) warrents taking someones life.

If its a property crime, obtain the best discription possible but leave your pistol in your pocket, UNTIL there is threat to life and limb.

Even if you are 100% justified and like Wyoming, you can't be held liable in civil court, its gonna haunt you the rest of your life. I don't care how justified you are.

Not worth the few dollars you may loose. If you're worried about loss of property, get insurance. Use you handgun only for protection of life and limb.

But that's just my opinion.
Kraig Stuart
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Old March 5, 2013, 10:17 PM   #12
Lee Lapin
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As a concealed carrier, the time to get an education in your jurisdiction's use of deadly force law is before the fact, NOT after the fact...
Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order!

Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.
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Old March 5, 2013, 11:34 PM   #13
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idiots like that scare me as much as the bad guys do. Many that can carry dont have enough brain power to carry. add the paranoid and that is what happens.
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Old March 7, 2013, 11:56 AM   #14
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Common sense is not a common virtue.
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