|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
December 30, 2012, 05:23 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 10, 2009
Location: Small city in New York
Posts: 482
|
Each of the colonies needed private citizens to be armed and available for defense (the militia) because there weren't enough British army troops to adequately defend the citizenry against hostile Indians. That's where the argument comes from that the 2A applies to the National Guard and Reserve. These militia joined the Continental army which was formed to fight the Revolution, after which the Continental army was disbanded and the militia - the "Minutemen"- were all the nation had in the way of land-based military capabilities to provide defense against hostile Indians. Everyday citizens (all fit males between 16 and 60) engaged in a variety of professions would be called to military duty in the event of an emergency, bringing their personal firearms. That's why the first part of the 2A reads like it does. About 2 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified the Congress formed a standing Federal army in order to provide better defense of the citizenry against the Indians, a role the British army of course wasn't going to fill any longer.
In those days some of the guns used for hunting, which just about every household did, were not all that different from the ones the military used. The civilians had smooth bore shotguns which were very close to the Charleville muskets they got from the French and Brown Bess muskets from the Brits. The civilians also had smaller bore "Kentucky" rifles that were much more accurate that they hunted with; these and the smooth bores were what the militia would bring with them when they were called to duty- their personal firearms.
__________________
Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how popular it remains? |
December 30, 2012, 05:24 PM | #27 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Too many people misunderstand the purpose of the COTUS. It is intended to preserve the rights of the people and to SPECIFICALLY delegate SOME of THEIR power to the government. The whole point is FREEDOM. Some things were foreseen as likely ways that the government would abuse the power GIVEN to it by TAKING powers RESERVED (reserved, that means belonging to and kept) to the people.
The type of weapons is irrelevant. The issue is one of a particular freedom that had been stolen before and was feared to be stolen again. The most important line in the COTUS is: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. The current state of affairs is sadly far removed from the intention. The National government was supposed to do what is directly spelled out in the COTUS. DIRECTLY spelled out. It is specifically NOT supposed to do those things specifically spelled out. Everything else. EVERYTHING ELSE is reserved to the people or to the states. Specifically in regards to firearms, the COTUS is clear that the issue of firearms is OFF THE TABLE. There should be NO National level prohibition regarding firearms. NONE.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
December 30, 2012, 05:30 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: AZ, WA
Posts: 1,466
|
I don't think it's as much of a stretch from a Brown Bess Musket to an M-16 as it is from a printing press to radio and television. The former is a logical advance of technology, while the latter would be sheer magic to an 18th Century intellectual.
Be that as it may, the "assault weapon" of the late 18th Century was the Brown Bess or Charleville Musket. It wasn't particularly useful for hunting, although it would serve in a pinch. It had two virtues: It could be loaded and fired rapidly, and it could mount a bayonet. As has been noted, that's exactly the type of "arms" our forefathers intended us to "keep and bear."
__________________
Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own craven apathy; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the valor of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill) |
December 30, 2012, 05:51 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,237
|
Yes....
As I read the constitution I believe that they were aware of the future. I have seen numerous quotes from Thomas Jefferson about individual gun ownership. Shall not be infringed, tells me that they foresaw government attempting to take those rights.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
December 30, 2012, 06:03 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 11, 2011
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 277
|
The founding fathers thought that the citizen should be armed as well as a rifleman in King George's army (or the government, ie potential tyrant). Back in the 1780s, that meant a muzzleloader. Today, that means a semi-automatic with a large capacity magazine, aka the dreaded 'assault rifle'.
|
December 30, 2012, 06:42 PM | #31 |
Member in memoriam
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
|
The militia was required to have a musket, ball, powder and a bayonet equivalent to that used for military service and to drill with same. The rationale that the people would be armed with the same arms as a regular army troop means that what they had they not only could have but should have.
Off the top of my head I am thinking that was the second militia act of 1792 but don't take my old memory's word for it.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster-- |
December 30, 2012, 06:48 PM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2008
Location: S.C.
Posts: 1,454
|
Quote:
The way citizens arm themselves is commensurate to the way our government is armed and as well as our enemies abroad.
__________________
Familiarity breeds contempt, while rarity wins admiration. Aupleius If someone doesn't like you, that's their problem! Milton Childress |
|
December 30, 2012, 06:49 PM | #33 | |
Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 43
|
Quote:
sent from the rust monster |
|
December 30, 2012, 07:09 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,378
|
The key here is "well regulated militia", while I believe they would have expected/required/desired the militia to have equivalent arms, they also had an expectation that the militia was regulated, not simply citizens with arms. I believe that is where the 2nd amendment is weak as it pertains to civilian privileges of arms, and subsequently is at risk.
|
December 30, 2012, 07:18 PM | #35 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
The key ISN'T "well regulated militia". That clause has always been understood by common sense, history and now codified by the SCOTUS to be only a single example, not an exclusive purpose.
|
December 30, 2012, 07:19 PM | #36 | |
Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 43
|
Quote:
sent from the rust monster |
|
December 30, 2012, 07:20 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,378
|
Now what would it take for the NRA to become a "regulating" body? The definition of "well regulated" is certainly loose. If the NRA was smart perhaps being a member could be enough to constitute regulation with some small level of administration.
|
December 30, 2012, 07:23 PM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,378
|
Buffalo44, the part that states a well regulated militia. Are you part of a well regulated militia?
|
December 30, 2012, 07:23 PM | #39 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,903
|
Quote:
|
|
December 30, 2012, 07:25 PM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,378
|
Brian, that is open to interpretation. It's vague at best. You and I can read it however we see fit, but what matters is how the Supreme Court sees it, and that body is moving left.
|
December 30, 2012, 07:26 PM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
|
1stmar, do you know what "regulated" meant in the 18th and 19th century? (and it still means that today, it's just no longer a common use of the word)
__________________
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth Last edited by zxcvbob; December 30, 2012 at 09:58 PM. |
December 30, 2012, 07:29 PM | #42 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
December 30, 2012, 07:29 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,378
|
Yes, according Alexander Hamilton it meant, organizing, training, arming and disciplined. What do you think hey meant?
|
December 30, 2012, 07:33 PM | #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
|
It means functional.
__________________
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth |
December 30, 2012, 07:36 PM | #45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,378
|
May want to check the federalist papers.
|
December 30, 2012, 07:41 PM | #46 | |
Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 43
|
Quote:
Common sense dictates a militia is armed, no need to repeat it. sent from the rust monster |
|
December 30, 2012, 07:42 PM | #47 | |
Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 43
|
Quote:
sent from the rust monster |
|
December 30, 2012, 07:47 PM | #48 |
Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 43
|
|
December 30, 2012, 07:51 PM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 14, 2004
Posts: 447
|
No, I don't think for the most part that the founding fathers thought about the weapons generally owned by civilians today when they wrote the 2nd Amendment.
Since at the time, private individuals could own ships of the line and canon and any ordinance they could shoot. I think the founding fathers were more likely thinking of privately owned artillery, mortars, crew served machine guns, and machine guns - as well as the standard issue military infantry arms. |
December 30, 2012, 08:02 PM | #50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,903
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|