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Old December 22, 2000, 10:13 PM   #1
beemerb
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Read starting with Solicitor General Seth para.I puked when I read this.A police spate with no checks is what is being talking about pure and simple.Murder with no recourse for justice.


Appeals Panel Hears Ruby Ridge Case

By DAVID KRAVETS, Associated Press Writer

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The FBI shooting of a white separatist's wife
during
the 1992 Ruby Ridge standoff was recounted in a federal courtroom
Wednesday
in a case that is testing whether federal agents are immune to state
prosecution.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals didn't immediately indicate
whether
prosecutors would be allowed to try agent Lon T. Horiuchi on
manslaughter
charges for the death of Randy Weaver's wife, Vicki.

The federal government declined to prosecute the agent.

Wednesday's hearing stemmed from a request by Boundary County, Idaho,
prosecutors, who argued in court papers that the shooting was done by a
``wild-headed government sniper.'' The county asked the court to review
its
June decision that said the county couldn't prosecute the sharpshooter
for
``actions taken in pursuit of his duties as a federal law enforcement
officer.''

Attorney Ramsey Clark, arguing for the county, said the court must
reverse
that decision in a case defining ``when government agents can kill with
immunity.''

Solicitor General Seth Waxman told the 11 judges that it didn't matter
whether Vicki Weaver's death was the result of excessive force.

``These federal law enforcement officials are privileged to do what
would
otherwise be unlawful if done by a private citizen,'' Waxman told the
panel
during the hour-long hearing. ``It's a fundamental function of our
government.''

Judge Alex Kozinski questioned Waxman's argument, saying: ``If the
Constitution does not provide limitations for federal agents' actions,
then
what does?''

Much of the discussion focused on the facts surrounding Vicki Weaver's
killing.

Judge Susan Graber asked whether Horiuchi, who wasn't in the courtroom,
knew
the unarmed woman was in the line of fire when he shot at Weaver's
cabin.
``Reasonable people could differ whether Agent Horiuchi's actions were
reasonable or not,'' she said.

``You really don't know the facts until you go to trial,'' Clark
responded.

Waxman said the facts are irrelevant, and that federal agents subject to

various state laws could chill the government's ability even to guard
the
president.

The court didn't indicate when it would rule.

During the weeklong standoff at northern Idaho's remote Ruby Ridge,
Horiuchi
shot and killed Weaver's wife and wounded family friend Kevin Harris.
Witnesses have said the sharpshooter fired as Vicki Weaver held open the

cabin door, her 10-month-old baby in her arms, to let Randy Weaver,
their
daughter and Harris in.

Horiuchi maintains he didn't see Vicki Weaver when he fired at Harris,
who
was armed and was ducking into the cabin as federal agents attempted to
arrest Randy Weaver on a weapons trafficking charge. He also has said he

fired to protect a government helicopter overhead.

The Justice Department this summer announced the settlement of the last
remaining civil lawsuit stemming from the standoff. The government
admitted
no wrongdoing, but paid Harris $380,000 to drop his $10 million civil
damage
suit.

In 1995, the government paid Weaver and his three surviving children
$3.1
million for the killing of Weaver's wife and their son, Samuel. The
14-year-old boy died in a shootout with federal marshals that ignited
the
siege. A deputy marshal was also killed.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/2000...y_ridge_1.html
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Old December 22, 2000, 10:42 PM   #2
Bam Bam
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Maybe I am wrong but have not federal officials been immume from state prosecution since the Whiskey Rebellion?
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Old December 22, 2000, 11:52 PM   #3
brianidaho
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Anyone got a e-mail address for the Boundry County prosecutor? I think we need to give him a few words of encouragement. If no one has it, I'll follow up, I'm just a couple counties south.

If I remember correctly I was under the impression the county prosecutor was a female, there was an article in the paper a while back. Things may have changed now, that was upwards of a year ago.

There was some debate of rather the prosecutor would appeal the original ruling. Boundry county is a quite rural county, and since the various Klinton attacks on the logging industry, unemployment has been high, and of course tax income low. It's good to see this pursued, the lack of accountability of federal officials is both scary and disgusting. Horiuchi was also a sniper at Waco. He claims he didn't fire there, yet spent cases were found at his post.
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Old December 23, 2000, 12:27 AM   #4
Indy Steve
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Well,

Maybe I am missing something here.

We keep voting and speaking but they keep on taking anyway.
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Old December 23, 2000, 06:38 AM   #5
urban assault
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Perhaps the time is coming when we stop speaking and start acting to save this country. Perhaps not. I fear for the future of our children.

michael
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"My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife... And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next!" - Gladiator

"You can get further with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word." - Al Capone
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Old December 23, 2000, 07:23 AM   #6
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It didn't say the judge accepted that idiot's argument. What you are getting is a specious argument, just like Algore's lawyers were making about the Florida election. I would think the judge would take him aside and tell him the next time something that inane comes out of your mouth, you will be fined for contempt of court.

Just my 2 Billybucks.
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o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain

o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey

o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC
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Old December 23, 2000, 10:54 AM   #7
Jeff Thomas
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Quote:
Judge Alex Kozinski questioned Waxman's argument, saying: ``If the Constitution does not provide limitations for federal agents' actions, then what does?''
I'd say that about covers it.


For more on this subject ... and, there is much more on this subject of government abuse ... I heartily recommend 'Lost Rights' by James Bovard. I am finding that RKBA supporters actually have many natural allies ... supporters of property rights, freedom of religion, fully-informed juries, anti-asset seizure groups, etc.

Pick up 'Lost Rights' - it is stunning.


And, I pray that the liberal 9th Circuit (Lord, how I wish AZ wasn't governed by those bozos ...) recognizes there are some limits to federal power in this country.

Regards from AZ
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Old December 23, 2000, 11:30 AM   #8
hammer4nc
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Seth Waxman is the same lawyer that argued that the second amendment "doesn't apply to civilians", in the Emerson case back in September.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky..._right_t.shtml

Our federal "justice" dept. advocates no accountability when a federal agent murders with a gun, and at the same time, denies citizens' access to guns for self defense. I'm praying that the new administration cleans house in the justice dept., including criminal prosecution of these scum.
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Old December 23, 2000, 11:38 AM   #9
Keith J
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I knew I heard of Seth Waxman before. Any relation to the US Representative Waxman who was on the anti-tobacco case?


BTW, I think we need postulate if James Byrd (the man dragged to death behind a truck in Jasper Texas) had been carrying a concealed pistol.......

Make the liberals choke on their own vomit. They pull ideas from the netherworld. We can derive ideas from the real world.
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Old December 23, 2000, 12:44 PM   #10
Oatka
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Boundary County prosecutor's email address

`These federal law enforcement officials are privileged to do what would otherwise be unlawful if done by a private citizen,' Waxman told the panel . . . `It's a fundamental function of our government.'

50-60 years ago we defeated people who thought like this. How the Hell did they get back? Oh yeah, fascists can be home-grown too.

brianidaho has a good idea. The prosecutors there probably never hear from the public in Idaho, let alone the rest of the Union. Here's your chance to thank these people: [email protected]

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Old December 23, 2000, 03:24 PM   #11
brianidaho
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According to the Boundry County web site, the county prosecutor is Denise Woodbury, Oatka has the right address, [email protected] I'm writing now, will let you know the response I get, as well as post the letter.

Bri
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Old December 23, 2000, 08:20 PM   #12
Bud Helms
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A Campaign ... ?

I say it's time for an email and snail mail write-in campaign, if for nothing else, just to offer encouragement. My email's already sent.

Brianidaho, can you post the USPS address for us?

- sensop
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Old December 24, 2000, 12:17 AM   #13
TheBluesMan
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Hammer4nc said what I was going to say.

Seth Waxman isn't a lawyer in the Emerson case, though. Seth Waxman is a fascist who is currently the Solicitor General of the United States. He confirmed, in writing, the words of Assistant United States Attorney William Mateja in United States v. Emerson that "the Second Amendment does not extend an individual right to keep and bear arms."

Here's the quote from Waxman that really shivers me timbers, "These federal law enforcement officials are privileged to do what would otherwise be unlawful if done by a private citizen."

So, not only do The People not have a right to keep and bear arms, but certain federal law enforcement officials are above the law, and can kill with impunity.

It is a sad day for our republic when our "public servants" can get away with this type of rhetoric without any personal repercussions.

Oh, BTW... Email sent.
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Old December 24, 2000, 02:23 AM   #14
Mike Irwin
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Well what do you know.

You've just seen the entire basis of the Clintonian approach to government:

All powers not specifically assigned to the states in the US Constitution are ours, and ours alone; powers that are specifically assigned to the states are supersceded by the power of the Federal government.

IOW, a total flipflop of what the Constitution actually says.

This one will likely be decided in favor of the County, will immediately be appealed, and will work its way up to the Supreme Court.
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Old December 25, 2000, 01:08 AM   #15
brianidaho
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Sensop, the snail-mail address isn't on the web site. I sent another e-mail to the prosecutor asking for it, I'll post when it comes in.

Bri
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Old December 25, 2000, 09:26 PM   #16
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Claire Wolfe Rant...

This is an excellent rant on this subject.

http://www.curleywolfe.net/cw/RA_980514.shtml


Thursday, May 14, 1998; 4:05 p.m. EDT: BOISE, Idaho (AP) -- A federal judge Thursday dismissed involuntary manslaughter charges against the FBI sharpshooter who killed the wife of white separatist Randy Weaver during the 1992 siege at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge accepted the Justice Department argument that Lon Horiuchi was acting in the line of duty when he fired and was protected by the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution, which keeps federal agents from state prosecution for actions within the scope of their job.

It is now a federal agent's "duty" to shoot nursing mothers in the face.

The argument, "I vass only following orders," which failed the Nazis so righteously at Nuremberg is now enshrined in America.

Anything a federal agent does - as long as it can be stretched to be considered within the scope of his job - is now above any state law, anywhere in this land.

I just learned a few minutes ago that Horiuchi walked free. I may not be entirely coherent expressing my loathing. He had only been charged with involuntary manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter, for god's sake! It was a token charge. A slap on the wrist. Nothing but a gesture in the direction of justice. It was the least, the very least, we had a right to expect from even an unjust government.

Yet for Judge Edward Lodge, Janet Reno and the federal Justice Department, it was too much. Allow one of their own to suffer any consequence for his own actions? Never. Allow a mere rural county government to imagine it could seek even token justice against an aristocrat? Don't be absurd. We are the federal government. We are Supreme.

Horiuchi ought to die. Ought at least to spend many years in prison, thinking about what he did. Instead, he gets to go home and laugh with his FBI buddies about how he got away with it. Just like they did at Waco. Just like future assassins will, as long as they work for the FBI or ATF or Marshals Service, IRS, Forest Service, HUD...or any of the other government agencies that now arm their agents, operate SWAT teams and play with military weapons.

I don't know whether an elite sniper like Mr. Lon Horiuchi hobnobs with regular FBI troops. But I can picture Horiuchi hoisting a celebratory beer with the agent seen in Waco: The Rules of Engagement, joking (Or was it bragging?) about what a trained and powerful killer he is.

Nothing new, nothing new. There's nothing new in federal murder. Nothing new in jackboot tactics. And they've been getting away with it all along, so why should anyone be so outraged now? Just because one more judge-member-of-the-club protects one more federal good ole boy?

Objectively, I'd say it's the use of the Constitution's supremacy clause this way - to give carte blanche to any crime a federal employee cares to commit. Even a casual reading of the Constitution - by an honest person, that is - reveals that clause was never intended to turn federal agents into a privileged class, exempt from all state punishment for crimes.

But that isn't it. There's nothing new in the Constitution being abused. Nothing new in corrupt judges and twisted rulings. Nothing new in federal arrogance. Nothing new.

For me it's more personal and more difficult to express.

I know that, for a lot of people in the freedom movement, it was Waco that moved them beyond doubt and into irredeemable disgust. But for me, the horrors of Waco have seemed so huge they've been an abstraction. Unless I'm hearing tape of the little Davidian girl begging the BATF sniper/negotiator not to come in and kill her...or unless I'm seeing those very normal "religious nuts" on the videotapes they made of themselves during the siege...unless I'm watching that terrible film...my mind has never really been able to grasp, in any personal terms, what happened at Waco.

But the moment I first saw the wavering, fuzzy footage of the Weaver cabin on August 22, 1992, my heart tore out of my chest. My lungs wouldn't hold any more air.

I can't even remember, at that point, whether they'd announced that Sammy was dead. Certainly, they were still pretending they had no intention of killing Vicki. (Only later would I see the documents and hear the testimony that made it clear that getting rid of Vicki, one way or another, was a top priority, since the government perceived her as the strong, decision-making member of the Weaver family.)

All I remember is that little cabin in the woods and all the forces of the federal government brought against one isolated family. They were calling them white supremacists at that point. I didn't know whether it was true or not; in any case, it wasn't a reason for 200...400?...agents to descend upon one plywood cabin. It wasn't a reason. What was the reason? That Randy was an "illegal gun dealer" as they put it then? Two hundred agents? Four hundred? Tanks? Humvees? Helicopters? Against a single family on a mountaintop? What was the reason?

And if these people, this family in the cabin, were so evil, so dangerous, so depraved, so violent, why would hundreds of neighbors and friends stand at barricades on their behalf for days? Why would women cry for them? Why would men demand a halt?

All I knew, as I sat there in my own one-room cabin set in its own dark and isolated woods, was that, wherever the truth lay, it didn't lay in the mouths of the government spokesmen. Whatever was true or false about that family up there, everything was false about those who sought to destroy them.

Everything.

And everything was false. And everything is false. And so a murderer walks free. And more murderers will walk free tomorrow. The same false and arrogant government that murdered Vicki Weaver will murder again.

They don't realize how much better off they'd be if they allowed just a few of their most public villains, like Horiuchi and the planners of the Waco raid, to receive public wrist slaps. They don't realize that if we saw even token agents receive token punishments, many of us would be appeased. "See," we'd say, "justice is done. There's hope. The system hasn't entirely failed yet."

But what can we say when, year after year, monsters walk free? They don't realize that the need for justice doesn't go away, just because justice goes away. They don't realize what a fury they turn loose in the land.

It's not their fury that will ultimately be the most terrible. Those bureaucrats with guns don't have enough true, gut passion to be furious. All they have is sadism, brutality and a cool, calculating will to power.

If rage could be measured in kilowatts or megatons, the rage of American freedom lovers would be as powerful as a dozen atom bombs. Understand. This power will go somewhere. It will drive the engine of our hope and despair. It will. You will not murder and celebrate your murders this way forever. You will not.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c)1998 by Claire Wolfe
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Old December 26, 2000, 01:55 PM   #17
Joel Harmon
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So can anyone post a picture of L. Horiuchi? Hasn't anyone gotten this tyrants address? Is he is some kind of protection program? Why is he still walking around? Please post this info. to a new thread if you do know so everyone can know who exactly this predator is.

Joel

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Old December 26, 2000, 02:23 PM   #18
Al Mondroca
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Horiuchi

So can anyone post a picture of L. Horiuchi? Hasn't anyone gotten this tyrants address? Is he in some kind of protection program? Why is he still walking around? Please post this info. to a new thread if you do know so everyone can know who exactly this predator is.

A lot of people would like his picture. From what I've gathered over the last few years on the net, the only known photo of Horiuchi is a grainy blow-up of a high school (or maybe college) yearbook picture. I've also heard (I can't confirm it, but I've heard it several times) that Horiuchi is in the Witness Protection Program.

Seems that a great deal of heat was directed at him, and his neighbors were deluged with messages asking how it felt to live next door to a vicious murderer. Which may be why he's in the WPP, if that's true.

I certainly hope so. I'd like to think that he'll spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder.
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Old December 26, 2000, 05:41 PM   #19
Oatka
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Prosecuting Attorney's snail mail address

Denise Woodbury
Prosecuting Attorney
P.O. Box 1148
Bonners Ferry, Idaho 83805
(taken from County Clerk's page)

Phone (208) 267-7545
Fax (208) 267-5284

http://www.boundary-idaho.com/prosecutor/index.htm
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Old December 26, 2000, 11:18 PM   #20
Bullpup
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But what did we expect

Should we be suprised by such insanity, the government having the right to kill just because the're the government. What do we have to look forward to in this new century? Maybe we will reverse the wrongs of the last, and these infringments of liberty by the government will be stopped peacefully, or will we have to eventually fight to get back what is ours and what the government thinks they have the "right" to take away from us? The government made a statement and that statement was that you don't have the right to beleive as you wish, and that the government will hammer you and you ain't got no way legally to stop us because the government has rights you peasants don't have, one of which is that we have the right to kill you justly or unjustly under the guise of "duty". Your right, that does make me sick, I just wish that the rest of the country was sick of crap like this as well. God help us.
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Old December 27, 2000, 12:22 AM   #21
EchoFiveMike
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There are photos of Horuchi floating around, from a Congressional hearing IIRC. He is in the Witness Protection Program because so many people want to zap him. He gives snipers a bad name. Freaking Nazi. Semper Fidelis...Ken
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Old December 27, 2000, 01:24 AM   #22
Bud Helms
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Thanks, Oatka.
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Old December 27, 2000, 03:41 PM   #23
Payette Jack
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`These federal law enforcement officials are privileged to do what would otherwise be unlawful if done by a private citizen,'' Waxman told the panel during the hour-long hearing. ``It's a fundamental function of our government.''

++++++++++++

BOY, if that doesn't send a chill up your spine, I don't know what will.

Are we under Martial Law yet? Was there a gold-fringed flag up in the courtroom by any chance?
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Old December 27, 2000, 04:53 PM   #24
HankL
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Here is a school photo of Horiuchi


Nice looking young man.
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Old December 28, 2000, 01:17 AM   #25
brianidaho
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FWIW, here is the reply from Boundry County:

Mr. Dunham, The mailing address of the Boundary County Prosecutor is
P.O. Box 1148,
Bonners Ferry, ID 83805.
Thank you for you letter to the prosecutor; I
have passed it and several others on to her, all in favor of her actions.
Mike Weland
Boundary County Resource Planner
Webmaster


I'm glad to hear that they are getting more support, lets keep it coming.

Bri
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