The Heartbreak of Bullet Setback - Page 2

Ridgerunner665 · October 28, 2012, 12:26 AM

Setback will happen regardless of neck tension or crimping method...you have a slick bullet held by slick brass...when it hits the feed ramp with force, it will move...maybe not the first time or even the 2nd...but it will eventually move.

I ride the slide closed when the need arises to rechamber a round...thats the only way to avoid setback....just be sure the slide goes fully back into battery (whack it on the rear with the palm of your hand)

cheezhed · October 28, 2012, 01:39 AM

When I unload my pistol I check the length with a dial caliper. I have never had setback YET..... but I will not chamber the same round more than twice. I mark the round with a marker and after the second chambering I put it aside and if it is still the correct length I will use it a the range and I will replace with a fresh cartridge for my carry magazine.

wayneinFL · October 28, 2012, 02:41 AM

One advantage of a Beretta 92- no bullet setback on that first round.

warningshot · October 28, 2012, 04:09 AM

Gentle, grab your calipers and start your movie cameras.

But before I do...I say no way. I'll try it with a Sig 226, Glock 17 & Beretta 92, using WWB, Winchester Nato, Fiocchi and my reloads.

cajun47 · October 28, 2012, 08:20 AM

"I ride the slide closed when the need arises to rechamber a round...thats the only way to avoid setback....just be sure the slide goes fully back into battery (whack it on the rear with the palm of your hand)"

anyone else does this? looks like the best answer so far. i carry 115 gr gold dots and i most certainly will not throw out the round in the chamber or shoot it. i shoot a 15 round mag sometimes twice a week and i can only afford to shoot fmj target ammo(115).

drail · October 28, 2012, 08:44 AM

While riding the slide down by hand "might" get the first round into the chamber without setting back what about the 2nd and 3rd and 4th rounds? And setback absolutely does not happen if the case neck has sufficient tension on the bullet. I am able to seat a bullet (with no crimp) and push the nose of the cartridge against the hard edge of my bench with both hands as hard as I can - it will not setback. Setback will only happen if the case neck has been overexpanded and does not grip the bullet tightly enough. The ammo companies know how to fix the problem. They just don't care. If you want ammo that will never setback learn how to reload.

warningshot · October 28, 2012, 05:40 PM

But I do know some good shooters whom use, for a better word, "Swamp Logic'', when it comes to shooting. Maybe I can learn something here.

YARDDOG(1) · October 28, 2012, 05:55 PM

When I chamber all my rounds I'll get out the calipers & check, Then get my bullet puller and adjust & recrimp to original COL. Then shoot em up next range session ; )

Y/D

745SW · October 28, 2012, 07:11 PM

I believe this setback issue is more of a 40S&W thing more so than other calibers. I’ve experienced setback with my hand loads for 45ACP during my early years of reloading, never gave it much thought at the time.

I believe it would cause the recoil to become vicious depending on the amount of setback.

Otherwise it hasn’t caused any issues for me.

Largely reload the 45ACP and 9mm for handgun. Never got into 40S&W and most likely never will. The 40, if I remember correctly, has a rather dramatic pressure increase for a given amount of setback.

Ridgerunner665 · October 28, 2012, 07:21 PM

drail,

My post was directed at those who rechamber rounds repeatedly...there is no need to "ride the slide" while firing the pistol provided one loads the ammo correctly...you and I are talking about 2 different things.

Hitting the feedramp once is one thing (doesn't usually move the bullet enough to cause trouble)...hitting it 3 or 4 times is the problem...and riding the slide closed fixes that problem.

And I don't don't care how many rounds a person has loaded or what experience they have....chamber a straight walled semi auto pistol round enough times...the bullet WILL move.

The only exception might be cannelured bullets...

**Tom Servo** · October 28, 2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

chamber a straight walled semi auto pistol round enough times...the bullet WILL move.

While straight-walled cartridges can manifest the problem, I've also seen it with .357 SIG and 9mm.

Ridgerunner665 · October 28, 2012, 09:47 PM

True...I forget about the 357 Sig

, I was counting the 9mm as straight walled though.

My buddy has recently got himself one (P250) and he's wanting me to reload for it...I kinda dread it, LOL.

And for the record,
I don't claim to be an expert at anything besides getting to the dinner table on time...but I load all my own ammo (and ammo for several friends and family)...my 45acp ammo will stand up to 2, maybe 3 chamberings before the bullet starts moving...I do that with neck tension, just like drail said...I do not crimp my 45acp ammo because its supposed to headspace off the mouth of the case...if you crimp the heck out of it, it can't do that...it ends up headspacing off the extractor which is OK most of the time...but its not the way it was intended to work.

The most common and overlooked cause of reloads getting setback is pretty simple...its the work hardening of the case, the more times you load a case...the less "spring" it has in it...and you lose neck tension.

I'll be the first to confess that I have 45acp brass thats probably been loaded 20-30 times...I've never attempted to anneal pistol brass, but the thought has crossed my mind.

carguychris · October 29, 2012, 10:42 AM

Quote:

I believe this setback issue is more of a 40S&W thing more so than other calibers... The 40, if I remember correctly, has a rather dramatic pressure increase for a given amount of setback.

Setback is potentially worse in .40S&W than other commonplace auto pistol calibers because (a) the case volume is small and (b) the empty portion of the case is relatively wide yet short, so a small amount of bullet movement will cause a proportionally larger change in volume.

According to my math, the .45GAP potentially also has this problem, although it operates at substantially lower pressure than .40S&W. I have not heard about this round having a higher-than-normal percentage of kB!s than other cartridges, but then again, I've not had a chance to ask one of the approximately 63 people in the USA who carry a G37/38/39 and aren't cops.

It should be emphasized, however, that ANY auto pistol cartridge that headspaces from the case mouth can have this problem. The potential exceptions are semi-rimless rounds that headspace from the rim, such as .32ACP, .38ACP (not .380!), and .38 Super. The case of a semi-rimless round can be crimped into a cannelure in the bullet like a revolver round; in fact, I inspected some .32ACP Fiocchi 73gr FMJ ammo I have, and it has cannelured bullets and crimped cases.

James K · October 29, 2012, 03:34 PM

I have not experimented with either .45 (ACP or GAP) or .40 S&W, but I did run tests with 9mm P. I used a vise to set back bullets in three different brands of factory ammunition in 1/10 inch increments. The last batch had the bullets forced down on the powder. When fired, only a few rounds showed any signs of high pressure in the form of slightly flattened primers, and those were with the bullet forced down on the powder, much deeper than any setback could possibly cause.

I also note that for years, tens of thousands of reloaders were advised to load rifle cartridges with the bullet seated down on the powder, even compressing the charge. Other thousands seated long bullets deep into the case to get a COAL that would fit a magazine. None of these practices seems to have caused a rash of blown up rifles.

In fact, bullet setback did not seem to become a problem until Glock produced pistols with questionable cartridge case support, and other pistol makers cut feed ramps to handle weird bullet shapes. When cases burst, those makers "discovered" bullet setback to shift the blame from poor case support, a pistol problem, to bullet setback, a user problem. It would be interesting to see the chambering of the un-named .45 pistol involved in the OP's incident.

The OP shows two cases, an unfired one with setback and a blown one. Did the high pressure from bullet setback cause the burst case? I don't know; and in spite of his dramatic presentation, I suspect the OP doesn't either.

It looks to me like the result of an unsupported case head, not high pressure, or at least not high pressure alone. There are several potential causes of high pressure and burst cases. I remain skeptical that bullet setback is one of them.

Jim

wayneinFL · October 29, 2012, 05:28 PM

I don't think the caliber matters that much. I've seen every pistol caliber have setback. Some action designs are a little more prone to it. I see more setback with my keltec P-11, for example. Very short action and steep feed ramp. The Beretta 92, not so much- and no setback whatsoever on the first round if you hand feed it.

warningshot · October 29, 2012, 06:33 PM

The basic .45acp 1911 design model's setback issue was sure lucky at being undiscovered until now.

Joe_Pike · October 29, 2012, 06:46 PM

Filthy communist hippies.

polyphemus · October 29, 2012, 07:33 PM

This thread started on account that someone was shooting dum-dum bullets
in a Swartz blocked,full size guide rodded,bushingless barreled gun that barely resembles a M1911.The shooter in question has experienced shell blow outs in the past and is therefore not using Winchester ammunition anymore.
Go figure but rest assured that the issue has nothing to do with .45 ACP FMJ pistol balls being fired in a real M1911.

HisSoldier · October 29, 2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Setback will happen regardless of neck tension or crimping method

Long before the internet I noticed setback. I didn't know it was dangerous but did notice chambering problems, so I got a C&H cannelurring tool and that fixed it. The solution is a smaller ring inside the case which the bullet cannot get past.
I saw a home built machine that cannelures probably 10K loaded rounds per hour. The reason I noticed it was because I designed exactly the same mechanism in my head.

The carrot only gets into the mouth of the donkey that reaches hardest for it.

Webleymkv · October 29, 2012, 08:04 PM

Has anyone here ever measure cartridge OAL over several chamberings to see how much and how quickly setback occurs? I ask because I saw an article in a gun magazine not long ago (I don't recall which magazine) which did just that. IIRC, most of the more expensive "premium" JHP loadings displayed the most setback, which was still only a small amount, within the first few chamberings and then very little if any for subsequent chamberings (I think they chambered each cartridge something like 8 or 10 times). Most of the cheaper JHP's and FMJ range ammo, however, displayed more dramatic setback and continued to do it for several more chamberings.

Ridgerunner665 · October 29, 2012, 08:07 PM

I was thinking of crimping the mouth of the case...but yes, cases crimped at the base of the bullet might work.

cajun47 · October 29, 2012, 08:19 PM

http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-135...Critical-DUTY/

"CANNELURED BULLET WITH CRIMPED CASE ensures no bullet setback during feeding."

well its hornady brand sd ammo for me. case closed.

polyphemus · October 29, 2012, 08:38 PM

It seems that barring a defectively loaded cartridge,the cause of this set back condition is repeated chambering.Logic then indicates that the practice of repeated chambering is unsafe and that shooters should avoid it unless stricly necessary.

myshoulderissore · October 29, 2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

cajun47
Senior Member
*
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Location: swamp people
Posts: 437
http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-135...Critical-DUTY/

"CANNELURED BULLET WITH CRIMPED CASE ensures no bullet setback during feeding."

well its hornady brand sd ammo for me. case closed.

Not quite... I've used the +p critical duty, and after 4 or so chamberings one of them was visibly set back. Nothing big, but from the center of the cannellure to nearly the front of it. Fired normal, no noticeable change, but got cycled out of chamberings duty. I'd wager that no ammunition is immune to setback.

20thru45 · October 29, 2012, 10:17 PM

Thanks, guys this is the best thread because as an every day carry guy who want to hand load carry rounds it might save me trouble. Other than that I am a virulent anti-communist with a well developed hypothesis of how pervasive the communist influence is. I believe it was set in place by Joe, Vladimir, Karl, Nikita, etc. In fact I hypothesize they won the cold war as evidenced by our current government. You know Eric Holder, Earl Blumenhour, etc.

October 28, 2012, 12:26 AM	#26
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	Setback will happen regardless of neck tension or crimping method...you have a slick bullet held by slick brass...when it hits the feed ramp with force, it will move...maybe not the first time or even the 2nd...but it will eventually move. I ride the slide closed when the need arises to rechamber a round...thats the only way to avoid setback....just be sure the slide goes fully back into battery (whack it on the rear with the palm of your hand) __________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum

October 28, 2012, 04:09 AM	#29
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	This calls for a expirement. QC hasn't dropped this bad has it? Gentle, grab your calipers and start your movie cameras. But before I do...I say no way. I'll try it with a Sig 226, Glock 17 & Beretta 92, using WWB, Winchester Nato, Fiocchi and my reloads.

October 28, 2012, 05:40 PM	#32
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	I never, 'herd', of Riding the slide home to avoid setback. But I do know some good shooters whom use, for a better word, "Swamp Logic'', when it comes to shooting. Maybe I can learn something here. Last edited by warningshot; October 28, 2012 at 09:21 PM.

October 28, 2012, 05:55 PM	#33
YARDDOG(1) Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: GATOR COUNTRY HA HA HA! Posts: 721	When I chamber all my rounds I'll get out the calipers & check, Then get my bullet puller and adjust & recrimp to original COL. Then shoot em up next range session ; ) Y/D __________________ There's a GATOR in the bushes & She's Callin my name >Molly Hatchett<

October 28, 2012, 07:21 PM	#35
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	drail, My post was directed at those who rechamber rounds repeatedly...there is no need to "ride the slide" while firing the pistol provided one loads the ammo correctly...you and I are talking about 2 different things. Hitting the feedramp once is one thing (doesn't usually move the bullet enough to cause trouble)...hitting it 3 or 4 times is the problem...and riding the slide closed fixes that problem. And I don't don't care how many rounds a person has loaded or what experience they have....chamber a straight walled semi auto pistol round enough times...the bullet WILL move. The only exception might be cannelured bullets... __________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum

October 28, 2012, 01:39 AM	#27
cheezhed Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2007 Posts: 302	When I unload my pistol I check the length with a dial caliper. I have never had setback YET..... but I will not chamber the same round more than twice. I mark the round with a marker and after the second chambering I put it aside and if it is still the correct length I will use it a the range and I will replace with a fresh cartridge for my carry magazine.

October 28, 2012, 02:41 AM	#28
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	One advantage of a Beretta 92- no bullet setback on that first round.

October 28, 2012, 08:20 AM	#30
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	"I ride the slide closed when the need arises to rechamber a round...thats the only way to avoid setback....just be sure the slide goes fully back into battery (whack it on the rear with the palm of your hand)" anyone else does this? looks like the best answer so far. i carry 115 gr gold dots and i most certainly will not throw out the round in the chamber or shoot it. i shoot a 15 round mag sometimes twice a week and i can only afford to shoot fmj target ammo(115).

October 28, 2012, 08:44 AM	#31
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	While riding the slide down by hand "might" get the first round into the chamber without setting back what about the 2nd and 3rd and 4th rounds? And setback absolutely does not happen if the case neck has sufficient tension on the bullet. I am able to seat a bullet (with no crimp) and push the nose of the cartridge against the hard edge of my bench with both hands as hard as I can - it will not setback. Setback will only happen if the case neck has been overexpanded and does not grip the bullet tightly enough. The ammo companies know how to fix the problem. They just don't care. If you want ammo that will never setback learn how to reload.

October 28, 2012, 07:11 PM	#34
745SW Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2011 Location: California Posts: 776	I believe this setback issue is more of a 40S&W thing more so than other calibers. I’ve experienced setback with my hand loads for 45ACP during my early years of reloading, never gave it much thought at the time. I believe it would cause the recoil to become vicious depending on the amount of setback. Otherwise it hasn’t caused any issues for me. Largely reload the 45ACP and 9mm for handgun. Never got into 40S&W and most likely never will. The 40, if I remember correctly, has a rather dramatic pressure increase for a given amount of setback.

October 28, 2012, 09:47 PM	#37
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	True...I forget about the 357 Sig , I was counting the 9mm as straight walled though. My buddy has recently got himself one (P250) and he's wanting me to reload for it...I kinda dread it, LOL. And for the record, I don't claim to be an expert at anything besides getting to the dinner table on time...but I load all my own ammo (and ammo for several friends and family)...my 45acp ammo will stand up to 2, maybe 3 chamberings before the bullet starts moving...I do that with neck tension, just like drail said...I do not crimp my 45acp ammo because its supposed to headspace off the mouth of the case...if you crimp the heck out of it, it can't do that...it ends up headspacing off the extractor which is OK most of the time...but its not the way it was intended to work. The most common and overlooked cause of reloads getting setback is pretty simple...its the work hardening of the case, the more times you load a case...the less "spring" it has in it...and you lose neck tension. I'll be the first to confess that I have 45acp brass thats probably been loaded 20-30 times...I've never attempted to anneal pistol brass, but the thought has crossed my mind. __________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum Last edited by Ridgerunner665; October 28, 2012 at 09:58 PM.

October 29, 2012, 03:34 PM	#39
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I have not experimented with either .45 (ACP or GAP) or .40 S&W, but I did run tests with 9mm P. I used a vise to set back bullets in three different brands of factory ammunition in 1/10 inch increments. The last batch had the bullets forced down on the powder. When fired, only a few rounds showed any signs of high pressure in the form of slightly flattened primers, and those were with the bullet forced down on the powder, much deeper than any setback could possibly cause. I also note that for years, tens of thousands of reloaders were advised to load rifle cartridges with the bullet seated down on the powder, even compressing the charge. Other thousands seated long bullets deep into the case to get a COAL that would fit a magazine. None of these practices seems to have caused a rash of blown up rifles. In fact, bullet setback did not seem to become a problem until Glock produced pistols with questionable cartridge case support, and other pistol makers cut feed ramps to handle weird bullet shapes. When cases burst, those makers "discovered" bullet setback to shift the blame from poor case support, a pistol problem, to bullet setback, a user problem. It would be interesting to see the chambering of the un-named .45 pistol involved in the OP's incident. The OP shows two cases, an unfired one with setback and a blown one. Did the high pressure from bullet setback cause the burst case? I don't know; and in spite of his dramatic presentation, I suspect the OP doesn't either. It looks to me like the result of an unsupported case head, not high pressure, or at least not high pressure alone. There are several potential causes of high pressure and burst cases. I remain skeptical that bullet setback is one of them. Jim

October 29, 2012, 05:28 PM	#40
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	I don't think the caliber matters that much. I've seen every pistol caliber have setback. Some action designs are a little more prone to it. I see more setback with my keltec P-11, for example. Very short action and steep feed ramp. The Beretta 92, not so much- and no setback whatsoever on the first round if you hand feed it.

October 29, 2012, 06:33 PM	#41
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	The basic .45acp 1911 design model's setback issue was sure lucky at being undiscovered until now.

October 29, 2012, 06:46 PM	#42
Joe_Pike Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2010 Posts: 1,581	Filthy communist hippies. __________________ Stay Groovy

October 29, 2012, 07:33 PM	#43
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	This thread started on account that someone was shooting dum-dum bullets in a Swartz blocked,full size guide rodded,bushingless barreled gun that barely resembles a M1911.The shooter in question has experienced shell blow outs in the past and is therefore not using Winchester ammunition anymore. Go figure but rest assured that the issue has nothing to do with .45 ACP FMJ pistol balls being fired in a real M1911.

October 29, 2012, 08:04 PM	#45
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Has anyone here ever measure cartridge OAL over several chamberings to see how much and how quickly setback occurs? I ask because I saw an article in a gun magazine not long ago (I don't recall which magazine) which did just that. IIRC, most of the more expensive "premium" JHP loadings displayed the most setback, which was still only a small amount, within the first few chamberings and then very little if any for subsequent chamberings (I think they chambered each cartridge something like 8 or 10 times). Most of the cheaper JHP's and FMJ range ammo, however, displayed more dramatic setback and continued to do it for several more chamberings.

October 29, 2012, 08:07 PM	#46
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	I was thinking of crimping the mouth of the case...but yes, cases crimped at the base of the bullet might work. __________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum

October 29, 2012, 08:19 PM	#47
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-135...Critical-DUTY/ "CANNELURED BULLET WITH CRIMPED CASE ensures no bullet setback during feeding." well its hornady brand sd ammo for me. case closed.

October 29, 2012, 08:38 PM	#48
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	It seems that barring a defectively loaded cartridge,the cause of this set back condition is repeated chambering.Logic then indicates that the practice of repeated chambering is unsafe and that shooters should avoid it unless stricly necessary.

October 29, 2012, 10:17 PM	#50
20thru45 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2011 Location: In the first foothills of the Cascade mountains outside Portland OR Posts: 156	Best thread best OP Thanks, guys this is the best thread because as an every day carry guy who want to hand load carry rounds it might save me trouble. Other than that I am a virulent anti-communist with a well developed hypothesis of how pervasive the communist influence is. I believe it was set in place by Joe, Vladimir, Karl, Nikita, etc. In fact I hypothesize they won the cold war as evidenced by our current government. You know Eric Holder, Earl Blumenhour, etc.