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Old September 5, 2012, 05:04 PM   #26
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"They aren't the same," our mentor explained. "In a Shooting only one person fires a gun and the average round count is one to three shots. However, a Gunfight involves multiple parties all firing guns and the average number of shots fired is whatever happens to be in the gun."
I think that is a rather cut and dry definition on scenarios that are not at all cut and dry.

I still believe that since the criminal initiated the conflict by producing a weapon and leaving the guard with only one option, to fire in defense, would qualify it as a gunfight, even though the criminal did not have the guts to stay and fight back, but YMMV.

Due to media usage of the term "shooting", it does leave a rather sour taste in my mouth to use it in this situation. Just ask yourself, who initiated this "shooting"? IMO, if it was the security guard, then yes it was a shooting. If it was the criminal, then I say that it was a gunfight because the security guard had no choice but to match deadly force with equal force (gun vs. gun).
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Old September 5, 2012, 07:49 PM   #27
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A "shooting" is when a bad guy shows up and shoots one or a bunch of people a la the Colorado movie theater or the Sikh temple. All one-sided. No "fight" involved.

A gunfight, on the other hand, is when two armed parties face off and shots are fired. This can happen by one or both parties. It is still a fight. Presentation of a weapon in a threatening manner turns it into a "fight."

A "fight" presupposes the capability of violence by both parties. A "shooting" does not.

If a big kid beats up on a little kid, it's a beating. No fight involved. If he can fight back, it's a fight. Get it?

All of which is beside the point of the OP. Whatever you call it, that guard was my kind of guy.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:06 PM   #28
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He accomplished his mission as a security guard. In watching the video he did what every Infantryman is trained to do.

....."close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver in order to destroy or capture him, or repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack." (bold face is added)

He was obviously well trained, well prepared both mentally and physically, and had a plan to repel the assault.

Good Job.
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Old September 6, 2012, 06:03 PM   #29
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Heard something cool today: Proper preparation prevents poor performance.

I am thinking the guard had prepared himself through both mental and physical rehearsal.
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Old September 7, 2012, 02:16 PM   #30
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Very impressive performance from a man undoubtedly paid poorly to sit in one place and watch a door ... wonder what his background is ... the speed with which he drew, his movement to the left to defend against the oncoming attack, his accuracy and lack of (evident) panic ... we should all hope to do as well, faced with the same circumstances ...
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:15 AM   #31
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Well this one surprised me. I really thought a gunfight was when two or more people fought with guns. Shouldn't matter if one of them didn't get a shot off. Turns out that they both have to shoot according to an authority on the definition of words, Merriam-Webster:
gunfight: a hostile encounter in which antagonists with guns shoot at each other
I learn something every day as long as I pay attention.
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Old September 8, 2012, 08:00 PM   #32
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I'm trying to figure out whether or not I care what you call it.
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Old September 8, 2012, 10:20 PM   #33
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first accurate hit=the one to make first accurate hit

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Old September 9, 2012, 12:12 PM   #34
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A "first accurate hit" does nothing to prevent rounds coming the other way, unless it's a very accurate head shot right to the "walnut". Good luck with that.

Anything else means your opponent has from several seconds to several minutes to return fire or do you harm by some other means.

You might kill your opponent quicker while he's in the process of killing you slower in return, but that's not "survival".

Getting 10 excellent hits and seeing him go down first is all fine and good. Congratulations ... you "won the match"! But it says nothing about his one lucky shot to your brachial or femoral artery (not even in the A zone!). EMS will be there in 10-20 minutes. You'll bleed out and die in less than 2. No doubt your shooting buddies will laud your excellent skills. Your widow and orphaned kids might have a different perspective.

If survival is the goal, the first priority has to be not getting shot or stabbed. That should be your first job while trying to position yourself to employ weapons skills to end the fight or attack.

Just my opinion, of course ... but I think it makes sense.

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Old September 9, 2012, 01:32 PM   #35
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When I first viewed this failed robbery attempt, the poor stupidity of the three individuals who ran, I say again, RAN in, therefore making themselves instant targets, is hard to fathom, stupid people.

The Security Officer (Officer in Florida, not Guard) Did real well, I played the video a few times, what I found interesting, his hand dropped to the Pistol, a smooth release on the thumb snap on the holster's thumb break.

(If he had it on, I think so)

Would like to hear the AAR After Action Report.
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Old September 10, 2012, 04:34 PM   #36
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In my experience, the main factor is not thinking, training or circumstances, the main factor is willingness– specifically, willingness to believe.

The next factor, as much as everyone hates to admit it, is luck.

There is a moment, when something happens, where one "can't believe this is happening". Mental inertia. Partly because one is unprepared to believe it's happening, partly because one doesn't want to believe it's happening. The hesitation between the stimuli and the reaction is personal, and I would never question another person's reaction to combat.

When one overcomes that, the next factor is luck. Millions of people have ducked left, early and well, straight into a mortar round. A bad guy spraying bullets down a hallway is equally unpredictable. If it were possible to see and avoid bullets, that's what we'd teach.

Mental preparation helps overcome inertia. Training helps with the mechanic skill. Sometimes the combination wins fights. And sometimes the highest skilled, hair triggered rifleman dies.

It's much easier to say what won't happen.

If you don't drill, you won't win because you won't hit the target.
If you don't think about it, you won't win because you will hesitate.
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Old September 10, 2012, 05:17 PM   #37
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If you don't drill, you won't win because you won't hit the target.
If you don't think about it, you won't win because you will hesitate.
Both of these are not true and have numerous folks who perform well contrary to them. In the first case, it reminds me that "only hits count." Most of the gun owners in America DO NOT DRILL or TRAIN, yet we read all the time how they win confrontations where they have fired their guns. Often they hit and often they don't, they they win. One of my favorite one shot stop stories is about an old lady in Florida who made some hells angels-type bikers mad and when a couple tried coming through her front door, she fired her tiny .25 acp just once and they fled. Two guys stopped with one shot from a puny caliber and the round stuck in the trim of the door. She won against a significant disparity of force and didn't hit either target.

Our trailer park hero was also a winner. That would be Vic Stacy who apparently put multiple shots into a gunman at some large distance (maybe 165 feet) and his story (search his name for the thread here) as told on video involved lots of thinking, hesitation, and methodical shooting and he certainly won.

These aspects are situational. Some people will fight you until their brain shuts down. Some people will run at the possibility that you have a gun. Some situations demand immediate action without thought. Other situations require careful consideration before firing.

Then of course was Mark Wilson. Seeing the gunfight from his window above the square in Tyler, TX, apparently responded without a second thought, bringing his pistol to fight a gunman armed with a rifle and ballistic and flak protection (multiple vests). Mark Wilson, a firearms instructor and gun range owner (possibly sold at the time of the event) did not think to grab a rifle from his apartment. As such, his shots on the gunman in the square were largely ineffective except for wounding him under the vest and drawing his attention where upon he downed Mark Wilson with one shot and executed him with a second before fleeing the square and later being killed by cops. A rifle would have done Wilson well, especially if fired from his apartment overlooking the square, but he didn't think and he didn't hesitate. Mark Wilson is a hero, but a dead hero of a gun fight.
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Old September 11, 2012, 10:26 AM   #38
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missing & winning a gun fight: you are depending on luck.

Pistol against opponent wearing vest: groin/head shot.

It's not practical to always have a long gun with you.
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Old September 11, 2012, 10:29 AM   #39
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I am not really inclined to believe that there is any real "key" to winning a gunfight. There are measures you can take to help you be prepared for a gunfight such as training/skill/knowlege/practice. The skills aquired from such things can lend you some specific advantages but does not mean that you are going to win over someone with less knowledge and training. All thing being exactly equal, yes.. I believe that the best trained, most skilled, best equiped person is very likely to win each time... but what gunfights are exactly equal?

Winning can depends on advantage:

Training is an advantage
Skill is an advantage
Better Equipment is an advantage
Numbers are an advantage
Position is an advantage
and so on and so on.

When you add all this up, is it enough to overcome the enemies advantages? It could depend on the actual worth you assign to each advantage plus a % of blind chance. yep, blind chance..

I believe that its always best to be well trained, well practiced and well equipped. I just dont necessarily believe that winning a gunfight will ever be as easy and written list of one - two - threes.
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
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Old September 11, 2012, 09:36 PM   #40
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Only hits count....

I read over a few of the posts & wanted to share my input(4 years active duty; US military, 20+ years in armed/protective services-security);

Mindset & training are important but what a few forum members may not be aware of is that armed attacks/robbery were common in central Florida. The G(Florida armed/licensed security) officer used good tactics & judgement but probably keyed into possible threats and the proper counter-measures BEFORE this lethal force event took place.
These new casino locations & gaming sites draw in thugs looking for a quick score. I'd opt for a tactical/LE type 12ga shotgun knowing multiple subjects may attempt a "take-down" robbery.
I also avoid the "what-if" game. You can second guess & talk yourself in circles doing protection/security work. The main point in armed security is to maintain a "hard target" and to find/remove any weak areas or problems in a security system. Thugs & gang members do not want to work hard or deal with well armed, well trained foes.
As combat veteran & top instructor; Clint Smith says; "if you look like food, you will be eaten."
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Old September 12, 2012, 03:04 AM   #41
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Clint Smith says; "if you look like food, you will be eaten."
Very true, some people, looking at the other side of that statement, give the impression, they are NOT food, and if eaten, or any attempt to eat, will not end in a good result, and predators let that fish swim by!

There are always more victims, letting one go is not a big deal.

The Movie where the brief case was lifted from the taxi (Collateral Damage) by three gang members, "Hey Homey" statement by Tom Cruise, started a sequence of actions, that ended in three dead gang members.

The small, slim man in a suit, was not seen as a threat.

The first clue, he was not frightened.
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Old September 12, 2012, 02:06 PM   #42
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fear, prepared...

Thugs & street criminals want a "easy lick".
If you walk down the street pulling wads of cash out or act like you are scared you could be "profiled" by a thug or group of hoods.

The G security officer was PREPARED to deal with violent threats and used good tactics. Watch how he keeps moving, scans for threats & doesnt turn his back on the robbers.

The only minor point I'd add is that in a lethal force event, be ready for any attack or even a sudden counter-attack all around you. 360 degrees.

I got in the habit of looking around all over during any confrontations.
An armed security guard in metro Orlando was robbed in a business parking lot by 2 thugs a few years ago. The first robber calmly asked for directions, the other snuck up behind the G officer & pointed a gun at his head. That guy should have "watched his 6" . Another armed patrol officer in the Tampa area was shot dead(in the back/head) as he stood in a parking lot. He never drew his 9x19mm sidearm.

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Old September 12, 2012, 03:04 PM   #43
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The first clue, he was not frightened.
No, the first clue was that it was a fictional movie. I was surprised he didn't just kung-fu them, then take out the other 50 members of their gang when they tried to get revenge.
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Old September 12, 2012, 08:47 PM   #44
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Correct, it was a movie, and movies follow a script, a Jamaican friend of mine has a saying, "If it don't go so, it nearly go so" covers a lot of situations.

Any violent confrontations, with firearms, or not, evolve/change so quick, it is normally impossible to predict outcomes, they just happen.
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Old September 12, 2012, 10:09 PM   #45
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To me, it's all about mindset and being alert to my surroundings. Sometimes, that draw 1/2 second before the other guy clears leather is all it takes.
Done that and paused at 1/2 trigger pull because the bad guy froze and took off running. To be blunt and honest too, when things go south, it tends to be FAST! Very fast and sudden!
It's not really different than driving a car; If you're aware of all the traffic around you, you automatically swerve intot he empty lane without thinking when somebody runs a stop sign instead of just slamming the brakes and sliding into them.
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Old September 14, 2012, 03:14 PM   #46
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It is very easy to sit at one's computer and Monday Morning Quarterback. The truth of the matter is that all the practice in the world will not tell you how you are going to react when the real thing happens. We can only hope the training kicks in for when the adrenaline starts pumping and the realization comes that someone is indeed trying to kill you, you better hope that you have prepared and have a game plan by playing the 'what if' game until you are dreaming about it.

I could not tell you how many actual gun battles I have been in while in Vietnam. I thought I was prepared but the first couple of times was a real challenge to maintain any type of cool, never mind figure out tactics. Repetition of basically the same stuff until it becomes as common as tying your shoelaces was survival in high gear. Still, you have to remain sharp, cool, and rehearsed or you may not survive and you had better hope if you have a partner, he/she has done their homework.

In the civilian world, I got caught in a gunfight without a gun. Only my tactics and ability to think under fire (thank you Vietnam) barely kept me alive until the Calvary arrived. Lesson learned: never be without a gun, in or out of your home.
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Old September 14, 2012, 10:35 PM   #47
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Mind set.

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Old September 15, 2012, 01:34 PM   #48
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There's a study, perhaps by Force Science, that found that within a few yards even untrained shooters can reliably hit the target. They could even make head shots. But when the distances moved out, the untrained failed to get good hits but the trained could.

Most DGUs are close up and we see what DNS was mentioning.
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Old September 15, 2012, 07:33 PM   #49
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Boatman,; training levels....

The late Robert Boatman, a author & gun-tactics expert, stated in a YouTube clip that you(the armed citizen or licensed officer) will revert to your training in a critical incident.
Tunnel vision, loss of hearing, time-location distortion, etc are all common. Dealing with these factors quickly will improve your chances.
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Old September 16, 2012, 07:33 AM   #50
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'Nuff said.
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