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Old September 5, 2012, 04:53 PM   #51
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Why must he do so silently? Simply because he disagrees with you?
No jimbob86 ... As I have pointed out, I think negative arguements against the test results posted by a member are counter productive. The article clearly stated the test results, the criteria for evaluation and the author's conclusion. If some objects to any of the criteria used, offer an alternative. Simply pointing out negative comments about the author's stated criteria strikes me as wasted bandwidth. If you enjoy reading the negatives, more power to you. You have your opinion, I have mine. I simply do not enjoy reading negative opinions, as opposed to simple facts.

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
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Old September 5, 2012, 07:37 PM   #52
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Not all of us have the knowledge and experience to know when a test is poorly conducted, much less the basis for knowing when subtle or not-so-subtle bias is injected through poorly chosen criteria.

So, well-reasoned and politely worded critiques help all of us better understand the value and relevance of a particular set of test results. The value of these critiques is darned near as important to the tester as it is to someone who has just started to study the subject.

Last edited by JASmith; September 6, 2012 at 07:37 PM.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:18 PM   #53
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Hook686, if you don't want to read the comments, don't.

Seems a lot of us find value in them.
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Old September 6, 2012, 12:44 AM   #54
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MLeake I enjoy reading positive comments, not negative, biased and otherwise slanted personal opinion. If you got something useful to say then say it in a constructive manner. I will listen. I might not buy it, but I will listen.

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Old September 6, 2012, 10:33 AM   #55
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Critical Duty round article Amer Rifleman

First, a caveat. This opinion is NOT supported by Cheaper Than Dirt, nor is it supported by Hornady, a major contributor to MOST of the gun shows on The Sportsman Channel.

After suffering through a few boxes of Hornady's Critical Defense, in both 9mm and .38 special, I've had enough. I cannot put this stuff in a magazine or a speedloader, and call it my defense load. Too many misfires. The 9mm misfired in both my Browning Hi Power MKIII, and in my Taurus M905IB revolver. The .38 Special load misfired in both a new Taurus M82, and in my beloved SW M15 Combat Masterpiece.

Now, the great Gods/Editors of American Rifleman magazine, and I am sure to come, the TV shows as well, will be hyping up this 'new, improved, police load by Hornady.

Sorry folks, even attempting to get to the TV Zombie Crowd, by changing the color tips from orange to green, will not have me give this stuff, any more consideration.

I will stay with the old standard L-series Remington 115 grain FMJ and JHP for my Browning; and a standard semi-wadcutter (no HP or Plus P) of a stout 158 grains in my .38 Special revolvers. Both are old school and still works.

I agree that hit the mark, followed by penetration, are the key factors. The ogive on the L-series Remington is acceptable for what are listed as class 3 9mm semiautomatics, due to their design. If it is acceptable for a Browning MKII, it is acceptable for a MKIII. A standard 158 grain semiwadcutter from either a snubnose, or a service revolver design revolver, will deliver enough penetration.
(For comparison, a video is out there of the evaluation of Buffalo Bore LSWCHP non-plus-p 158 grain .38 special. The HP failed, becoming a wadcutter, that penetrated over 19 inches.)
Lastly, a box of LSWC or a box of L-series Remington rounds, each holding 50, currently still costs less than Hornady's 20 for $20.
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Old September 6, 2012, 01:13 PM   #56
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You had bad luck with the Hornady's Critical Defense ammunition eh ? Anyone else have bad luck with these calibers ? I shot some .357 magnum out of my 627 and had no problems.

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Old September 6, 2012, 01:33 PM   #57
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Balistic Tests

To answer the question above me first I actually carry Hornaday critical Defense in several of my handguns not all but several.

As far as handgun penetration testing I find it to be in general useful but not the only thing to live by. My method with a new defensive firearm goes a little something like this......

1. Pick Gun
2. Clean and inspect gun before it ever sees the range
3. buy (or use if already on hand) the most cost effective ammo to famalrize myself with the weapon Federal Champoin bulk gets used alot
4. Begin to mix in High quality SD ammo to test for function and accuracy
5. Find The most accurate SD load
6. Test the most accurate SD load until I know it will function

I am way more concerned with hitting what I am aiming at than a round that does 14.3 or 15.2 inches in a balistic test. My plan is to be shooting COM on a human being who means me harm. I have no interest in a shot through glass, drywall, a car door, or any other barrier.

If there is a wall between myself and a threat I will be using it as concealment (not cover concealment) to mount a hasty retreat.

In my home I am armed with a very dependable shotgun if someone was beating down the bedroom door and they meant us harm I would be doing some penetration testing with Winchester PDX 1 the round with a slug and buckshot. PS I already know it will penetrate a standard interior door because I used one off a house remodle for testing.

I can understand why the FBI, LEOs, and the military need penetration testing on their ammo however I am not them therefore my needs are a bit different.

Regards, Vermonter
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Old September 6, 2012, 03:33 PM   #58
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I am a metrologist/test engineer, both by trade and by "disposition of personality" (inside industry joke ... it basically means you are a certain kind of useful pain-in-the-neck)

Ballistics Gelatin testing satisfies only two criteria of scientific metrology:
  • Consistant, known initial conditions
  • Consistant testing medium

Where it fails is in using a meaningful and duplicative analog to the problem being simulated ... gelatin does not really duplicate any known body structure, and only does a very rough job of simulating certain aspects of muscle tissue. Gelatin is similar to muscle in terms of viscosity, for instance but not at all in respects to fibrous structures of varying tensile strength, shear strength, blah, blah, blah.

It works sorta well as an extrapolative test however, and nobody has come up with anything better in this regard than calibrated gel testing. Just don't be fooled (the FBI isn't) into thinking that X" of penetration or expansion will result in the same on anything living. It won't.
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Old September 6, 2012, 06:43 PM   #59
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As an NRA Life Member, I hate to have to say this, but...I have largely given up on reading The American Rifleman, especially the tests of firearms, ammo, etc. (In all fairness, it seems as if a number of other gun-related publications fall into the same category.)

It may just be my observation, but it seems to me that everything they test is just the greatest thing to ever come along.

As far as the value of opposing viewpoints, I will make a confession:
When I started getting into recreational shooting in late 99/early 2000 (as opposed to merely owning a couple guns and shooting twice a year) I started reading...everything I could lay my hands on.

Before the Internet, I had read American Handgunner waxing ecstatically over MagSafe 9mm and .40 S&W loads. I also bought a copy of Marshall and Sannow's "Stopping Power", which also endorsed those pricey ($20/6pack) pre-fragmented loads.

I had those hyper-expensive loads in the P7 PSP sitting on my nightstand, and although I had only put a few of those rounds down the barrell, I was convinced that I had the best HD setup around.

You see, the problem was that I had exactly two data points, and they both aligned.

Then one fine day, along came Al Gore, [mega-sarcasm]and he blessed us with the Internet.[/mega-sarcasm]

I found numerous posts on the Internet that quickly dispelled the notion that I had done everything possible to prepare for "what if".

I started reading other opinions, and my eyes were quickly opened. I read, and I shot, and I read and I shot and then... I read and I shot some more. Nearly $200 worth of MagSafe 9mm and .40 (a pitifully small number of rounds) were expended into paper and I quickly discovered that the lighter (and faster!) 9mm load would not reliably cycle my S&W 469, which was so loaded...

Almost 13 years later, there are no "gimmick" rounds in my inventory. Just plain old factory JHPs...quality ones, like Gold Dots and DPX.

And every time someone posts asking about Glaser and/or MagSafe, I try to show "the Rest of the Story", as Paul Harvey would have said.

Bottom line: If it weren't for people willing to share their knowledge/experiences, and express "the other side" our community would be far poorer (in knowledge). If I was not willing to listen to both sides, I would have made some (more) very poor decisions along the way.

The more data points, the better. We are adults, and given sufficient evidence, we can make our own informed decisons. Key word being informed.

Supressing/discouraging dissenting opinions is counter-productive, and (IMHO) anti-American.

Most of us understand the concept of separating the wheat from the chaff...and are capable of doing so.

Last edited by orionengnr; September 6, 2012 at 06:48 PM.
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Old September 6, 2012, 09:32 PM   #60
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Most of us understand the concept of separating the wheat from the chaff...and are capable of doing so.

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
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Old September 6, 2012, 11:07 PM   #61
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The Pig Test

Guys, were I live we have a lot of wild hogs. I have found that if you want to get real world results on a rifle or pistol load shooting pigs works great. A 200 lbs. pig is just like a 200lbs. naked human. With many years shooting, what we call pest and the rest of the world calls breakfast, I have tested many loads in rifles and hand guns on pigs. OK, P.E.T.A. people the hand gun shots were tested on a dead hog. I did not hunt one with hand gun loads. Anyway a pistol round acts one way when it is a gut shot and another going through bone. Since I a carry a 9mm for my personal and home protection the round I found work best in both gut and through bone is 124gr. +P Gold Dot. Now, I sleep just fine knowing what I carry in my gun does what is expected. These findings should not be a big surprise and its sure not rocket science. If you want to know what ammo works best spend 15-20 bucks and get some large pork ribs, the type with the big bones not baby backs, and put them in front of 5 or 6 water jugs place 2-4 plys of blue jeans in front of it all and pull the trigger. I make my shots at 15 feet away with the hand gun test. That is about as far as you get when it comes to getting into real world shootings involving a hand gun. You will be surprised at the different results you will get from what all the experts say and write about.
Give it a shot it makes for a great deal of fun.
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