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Old December 10, 2011, 06:48 PM   #26
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Less is more. Just the Four.

The political cycle must be underway. I'm thinking in slogans.
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
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Old December 10, 2011, 07:16 PM   #27
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I added a "fifth" rule, Never clean or work on a firearm when ammunition with live ammo in the area.
Why would you stop there?

No ammo in the same room where one is dry firing.

No dry firing without an adequate back stop.

Open the chamber on your shotgun before crossing a fence (when you're alone)

Don't leave a loaded firearm leaning against a tree.

Never pick up a gun without checking the chamber to verify that it's unloaded. Even if you recently did so.

etc, etc, etc.

If we wrote a new rule for all the individual circumstances that have caused gun accidents, there'd be no end to them. And if you look close enough, the BASIC rules probably already apply.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by Nnobby45; December 10, 2011 at 07:43 PM.
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Old December 10, 2011, 07:30 PM   #28
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A firearm instructor who failed to differentiate between the unloaded and the loaded magazine......

A firearm instructor who put his finger on the trigger....

... when the firearm was pointed in an unsafe direction...

Hmmm.... I don't think I need to say anymore.

There is no room for error with firearms. Rule # 5 may just be the clincher, for those who don't absolutely get the first four. Yet, someone will still ND somehow and we will be adding rule 6. /c:

BTW kraigwy - sorry I was an ass re: an earlier thread. I had a bad day, not your fault... Hope we can share conversation and hope I can learn to shoot the AR better.
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Old December 11, 2011, 05:53 AM   #29
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I agree with Pax on this.

Rule 1 has to be violated.
The other three are the ones that shouldn't be violated, and are the ones that cause the problem.
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Old December 11, 2011, 02:46 PM   #30
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Never clean or work on a firearm when ammunition with live ammo in the area.
May I add never dry-fire a weapon with live ammo in the same room, I learned this lesson years ago, enough said.
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Old December 11, 2011, 03:31 PM   #31
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I have to dry fire near where I reload

The absolute sanest backdrop I could ever have is in the garage which is also the only sane place for me to reload. My solution: a no-go spot for ammo, 10 feet from the reloading bench, and only dry fire my rimfire guns. The rimfire ammo could leak and find its way into the quarantine zone, but I've at least added a couple of links to the chain of mistakes I'd have to make for an ND.

All of the guns I am interested in have .22 analogues. Except the M1 Garand. Anybody got a recommendation for an 8.5 lb .22?
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Old December 11, 2011, 05:12 PM   #32
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I have a few other rules. Most of you may laugh at them but they weren't made up for no reason.

Don't hot load your ammunition. If you want .357 performance out of your .38 special, get a .357 in the first place. If you want .44 magnum performance out of a .44 special or a .45 Colt, get a .44 magnum.

Likewise, for rifles, don't load ammunition that's only good for certain rifles. This is especially true for the old .45-70.

Don't take both a .44 and a .45 revolver to the range at the same time. The ammunition is too similiar.

Your commercial shooting range may have a nice display of disassembled handguns that will tell you why.
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Old December 12, 2011, 06:39 PM   #33
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No Mexican carry !
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Old December 12, 2011, 08:35 PM   #34
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Peetzakilla said:
I agree with SwampYankee. It's not about ignoring the other 3 if you make sure that it's really, really, really not loaded.... it's about the other 3 being AUTOMATIC if you UNDERSTAND #1.

The fact that I check, double check and then triple check that the gun is, in fact, NOT loaded, doesn't change the way I handle the gun afterwords, except to the extent that if I thought it might be loaded I wouldn't actually pull the trigger to begin disassembly, for example.

This post is exactly what I was going to say. If you always obey #1, then 2, 3 and 4 are automatic.
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Old December 12, 2011, 10:32 PM   #35
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Like said already, it doesnt matter what the rules say, its the discipline of the people "following" the rules that makes the biggest difference. I have everything at my desk; reloading components, live ammo, handguns in the drawer. I dont have a whole lot of experience but to date I havent even come close to anything bad happening.

My house has a crawl space, I point my revolvers at the floor when dry firing. After checking obviously. I even swing the crane open after a full revolution. I was hunting last night, and swung the crane open just to verify that it WAS loaded!
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Old December 13, 2011, 07:16 AM   #36
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No need for 5, more is less.
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Old December 13, 2011, 08:14 AM   #37
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Always handle a firearm as if it were going to go off at any moment.

Keep your finger off the trigger until the firearm is pointed at the target and you're ready to fire.

Keep the safety on until the firearm is pointed at the target and you're ready to fire.

Always handle a firearm as if it were going to go off at any moment.
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Old December 27, 2011, 05:54 PM   #38
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No, these 4 from Jeff Cooper, and not re-written:

All guns are always loaded.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.

Identify your target, and what is behind it.
No changing of Coope's original intent are acceptable.
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Old December 27, 2011, 07:24 PM   #39
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Not "freaks me out" like I think it shouldn't be neccesary or the design is flawed but like every time I go to do it I go "WHOA! WHOA! You are about to pull the trigger on a firearm! Are you REALLY sure it's unloaded!"
I feel the same about my Glocks whenever I clean them. Not only do I lock the slide back and check visually, I have adopted sticking my little finger into the chamber. Even after that, I'll still take it out on the deck and point it at the ground. Just goes against my grain is all, to have to pull that trigger on what looks like a ready weapon.
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Old December 28, 2011, 07:06 AM   #40
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I had an instructor give us a 5th rule that I really liked and continue to use:
DDSS: Dont Do STUPID Stuff! You can't tell me that 99% of the people who have ND's had no idea what they were doing was STUPID! They may have ingnored that fact, but Id venture to guess they still knew!
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Old December 28, 2011, 09:55 AM   #41
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I think we need to fight the tendency to create new rules or laws when something goes wrong. The original 4 would have prevented this, so no need for #5.

Some may disagree, but I always stress #2 (muzzle discipline) as the most important rule. That way if you make a mistake on one of the others you and the people in the immediate vicinity will be:
1) Scared
2) Angry
3) Embarassed

But more importantly:

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Old December 28, 2011, 10:12 AM   #42
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I'm still convinced that they all flow from Rule #1.

After all, if the gun's not loaded, why muzzle discipline?

If the gun's not loaded, why keep your finger off the trigger?

If the gun's not loaded, there is no target or anything beyond it of which to be sure.

These things only matter if the gun is ALWAYS loaded. If the gun's NOT always loaded, all the other rules are "part-time"... only applying when the gun IS loaded. Dangerous, that would be.

If Rule #1 is applied and it's implications understood the other rules are automatic. They don't even need to exist, formally, if Rule #1 is understood. They will just "be".

Of course, they are layers of protection and we need them to exist but Rule #1 is where it's at.
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Old December 28, 2011, 11:05 PM   #43
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I think you missed the same one the "armorer" did

Originally Posted by kraigwy
(edited for brevity) What happened he pulled an empty magazine out of the to be worked on pistol.
He pulled an empty mag from the pistol. OK. That does not guarantee there was not still a round in the chamber the whole time (until the discharge).

We only assume the chamber was ever empty because the magazine was empty. Possibly the guy did, too.

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Old December 28, 2011, 11:37 PM   #44
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I have a 14½ year old daughter that I haven't introduced to my handguns just yet. She's not that interested, but I still want to instill some basic firearm safety at some point soon. But until I'm absolutely sure I can get Rule #1 fully ingrained into this teenage girl's head, it's going to have to wait.

Unless the gun is disassembled for cleaning, it's probably loaded. As soon as I put the slide back on the frame, it's a potentially loaded gun and Rule #1 is in effect. Simple as that.
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Old December 29, 2011, 03:18 AM   #45
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As a side note first: Glad to hear your step-daughter wasn't harmed. The bright side is since she experienced that incident, it will further bolster her own safe practices when handling a firearm.

I personally am a staunch believer of Cooper's Four Rules. NOT the four rules with the word "treat" in it. The word "treat" gets on my last nerve in a heartbeat. I believe it's the absolute worst thing to have in Rule #1 or any for that matter.

I respectfully disagree with having a 5th rule. The other four covers it all soundly.
If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language.

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Old December 29, 2011, 12:03 PM   #46
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I too am thankful your step-daughter was not hit by the bullet.

IMO, this whole issue goes back to the #1 safety issue - The best safety is the gray thinking matter between your ears. I see the point of the OP, but IMO the incident occurred because someone failed to follow already set safety practices, policies, procedures and/or common sense.

The NRA courses teach no ammunition unless the firearm is ready to be used, no ammunition in the area if cleaning or dry firing and to always visibly check the chamber. Personally, I make sure there is no magazine in the mag well, verify an empty chamber and watch the feeding and chamber area when the action is closed.

Dry firing can help to develop better shooting form and techniques, and it has been discussed many times on TFL. One of the safety areas regarding dry firing I have stressed is that it should be done with a backstop capable of stopping a round if a discharge were to occur. Is this something your practice? Nobody wants an unintended discharge, but it would be better to shoot the freezer in the basement than to penetrate doors or walls.
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Old December 29, 2011, 12:40 PM   #47
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Boy if I didn't open a can of worms. I wrote the letter suggesting training and hinting policy change regarding no live ammo in the area where one is working on a department firearm, not suggesting we re-write the "firearm safety rules".

The letter was also written to support a petition floating around town demanding this guy be fired. Its not his first firearm safety rule violation, including leaving a loaded shotgun at the prison after a training event.

And people wonder why I go out of state for my LEOSA yearly firearm qualification in stead of doing it locally.

Anyway, as a follow up as to what happen to the guy: He was promoted and now jokes his actions was a ploy to get a new arms room in the basement to play with department guns which he is getting.
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