The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 17, 2011, 05:23 AM   #26
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Some of the posts here bug me, so I'm going to bring this thread back up. Not sure if it's "necromancy" yet, or if I'm changing the subject too much. I know it's a gun forum, but I feel it's relevant to self defense and training for knife threats, or threats that should be met with force when a firearm is not available.

Bringing a knife into play, whether it's you or your opponent, doesn't always mean you'll get cut. If a guy swings at you, and you hit him a couple times in response, would you notice him reaching for a knife? You should.

If a guy is getting cocky, are you going to stay there anyway? Not likely, especially if there's a knife present.

Most knife attacks aren't noticed, this may be true. However, if someone decides halfway through to reach for a knife, and you don't catch it, you're doing something wrong. Either you should have gotten out of there or you should have noticed the hand retract for a weapon. Lastly, if you are not prepared to defend against a knife in such a situation, why bother even carrying a gun you'll likely never get into play? Why bother knowing any form of defense that won't stop a knife wielding lunatic?

A knife fight is rare, dueling left modern culture over a hundred years ago. While most knife styles present this idea, it's false. If you stand there and whip out a knife because they did, you have had your chance to run and deserve your cut, don't be foolish. I carry a knife to be used when I am at a disadvantage, and no other option is presented. Mostly, against an impact weapon, not another knife. Could I reasonably disarm someone wielding a steel pipe? Yeah, with my skills MAYBE, but could you? A knife can solve this lethal force issue, when a firearm isn't able to be presented.

A cut is better than a stab, in defensive action. It's easier, it's less lethal, and it has the same effect on their reaction. "Stopping power" has been observed in firearms to be uncommon, same goes for a knife. But cut or shoot someone, the reaction to retreat is the same. Drugs involved? Cut twice, don't forget you have a fist and knees to be used. If you use a knife, and the person you cut continues to attack, I see no reason to stop. Same goes for a firearm, if they continue after a round or two, why wait for an effect? Lastly, a baton is better than a knife in many ways, but I don't like weapons my opponent can grab.
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 05:06 PM   #27
Senior Member
Join Date: August 18, 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 171
To answer the original post, here in Utah where we have a real winter, I like to carry ammo that I'm confident will penetrate multiple layers. The gun does not change though.
rem44m is offline  
Old December 17, 2011, 07:54 AM   #28
Join Date: November 12, 2011
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 48
Cooler weather is Big Gun season!

I do tend to let the weather and/or activities dictate my carry gun to a certain extent.

While there are no guarantees in life, certain areas I feel are more likely to offer a self-defense situation than others.

So in the summer heading to the store it's a Kel-Tec .32 or Walther .380. And in the fall/winter, heading to a "questionable" area, I may go with my full-size sw1911 in a SOB holster with 2 extra magazines.
PADefenseTrainer is offline  
Old December 17, 2011, 10:46 AM   #29
Junior Member
Join Date: November 2, 2011
Posts: 8
My gun and method of carry do not change. To those who depend on larger, bulkier outergarments to conceal a larger weapon than their summer carry one, I have a question. Do you plan on staying outdoors ALL the time? What happens when you have to take that large coat off and have no way to conceal your mega blaster?

I carry a 1911, used to always be a 4 1/4" barrel, but lately a full size one most of the time. I carry all my waking moments, so my concealment garments must conceal in all situations, both inside and outside. Only in very difficult situations (for concealment purposes) do I revert to a Ruger LCP in a pocket holster. And that's the way it is at MY house!
waddy is offline  
Old December 17, 2011, 11:17 AM   #30
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
I can't carry in Illinois, but one of the issues that I wonder about is having to take a coat off when you go indoors.

I wear a pretty big coat and it will hide anything. I can drop cans of soda in the pockets of the coat and you can't tell.

But anyway, when I go indoors I can't keep the coat on. If I am relying on the coat to conceal a firearm, what happens when the coat comes off? Now I have a firearm in my coat pocket...

I've found this to be common, I don't know if you guys run into this, but a lot of places I go - they don't have or use coat racks or coat closets. They usually have a guest room where they pile the coats on a bed.

Have you guys run into that?

So if I have my gun in my coat, now it's on a bed in a pile of other coats, so I have to worry if kids go into that room, or if a gues leaves early and they are rumaging around in the pile of coats and they feel something heavy in my coat...

So then, I could either not go armed to that party, or I could leave the firearm in the car...

But the same thing applies to almost any indoors situation - going to the grocery store or work, or going to a class at school.

What do you do when you are separated from your winter coat?
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 17, 2011, 11:24 AM   #31
Senior Member
Join Date: May 10, 2011
Posts: 213
Winters in Texas where I live just don't get cold enough for me to wear more than a light coat no longer than I am out in the cold. I don't like wearing it because it might slow down my drawing my CA 44 Bulldog, but my pocket 642 S&W 38 will still be in my front pocket.

As for fist fights and knife fights, as for either, as an old man, I have to go for my gun because too old and out of shape for that. Can't carry a knife with a blade longer than about 3 and 1/2 inches in Texas anyway, and handguns are the only weapons allowed with the CWP. Only fights I will have at my age would be a gunfight regardless of what the attacker comes at me with. And if my disabled daughter is with me retreat is not an option unless I am already in my car.
TexasJustice7 is offline  
Old December 17, 2011, 11:54 AM   #32
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
My thinking is I have to have a weapon that is concealable and it can't depend on the heavy coat.

As far as deploying any kind of weapon besides a firearm, I've said this on a black-jack thread. I don't plan on engaging in unarmed combat with anyone. There are well known cases of people being beaten to death where the murderer used only their fists and their feet, of course there are well documented cases of people being killed with knives or even pointed instruments - like screwdrivers. There are myriad endless scenarios that can be gone through but in general I try to avoid, evade, escape the situation and only deploy a firearm as a last resort, but I'm not going to deploy a baton because a guy is weilding a pipe, or pull out a knife because a guy is weilding a knife. If I can't get out of that location, I'm pulling a firearm.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 17, 2011, 12:09 PM   #33
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
I am a Leo and have a right to open carry off duty but I still to choose conceiled. I carry same firearm (glock 22) with my badge nag carry under a light jacket or under a button shirt not tucked. Alot of people carry for they wanna look manly but i choose to carry not I'n open not to distract but to carry for protection and even for ones who may not be happy with their consequences from when I had to deal with them on earlier terms. But winter/summer no change I'n firearm or ammo. Ps- ammo is hydra-shocks
farmerboy is offline  
Old December 21, 2011, 09:15 AM   #34
Senior Member
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Posts: 294
The politicians here in Illinois have made it real simple for us. My winter and summer carry are exactly the same. They recommend carrying keys for self-defense:

I try to carry a backup set just in case.
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill
output is offline  
Old December 22, 2011, 09:13 PM   #35
Shadi Khalil
Senior Member
Join Date: September 23, 2006
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 5,205
CountZero, the very same thing happens to me last weekend. I went to a friends for a dinner party with a revolver in my pocket, right when I walked through the door his wife took my coat. I had ment to slip it in my pocket but I was carry a bunch of tupper wares for the potluck. I was quickly able to get it out of the coat and into my pants pocket but had it been a larger gun it might have been a problem.
Shadi Khalil is offline  
Old December 22, 2011, 09:56 PM   #36
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 394
If only, Ohio knife laws are pretty vague...and yet strangely specific at the same time, and our carry permits do not cover weapons other than pistols. Rather unfortunate, I would actually prefer a dagger to a pistol in many cases - such as heavy clothing, distance from assailant, bystanders, etc.
The following was obtained from Buckeye a reputable group of people that fight for gun rights in Ohio and share the enthusiasm for weapons with everyone in the gun nation

"Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense
Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates are:

Resisting with a gun 6%

Did nothing at all 25%

Resisted with a knife 40%

Non-violent resistance 45%"

Id take a gun over a knife anyday
"If you show up to a fair fight, you're not prepared" -Unidentified Marine Sniper Instructor
"The philosophy of gun control: Teenagers are roaring through town at 90MPH, where the speed limit is 25. Your solution is to lower the speed limit to 20."
- Sam Cohen
DBLAction454 is offline  
Old December 22, 2011, 11:31 PM   #37
Senior Member
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 5,159
For a number of years, I used winter as an opportunity to experiment and (incrementally) carry a larger handgun for a few months. It has worked, as I am now carrying a steel Commander-sized 1911 year round.

While I still enjoy my 4" N-frames (took the M25 to the range today, as a matter of fact) I am of the opinion that switching back and forth seasonally between a point-and-click revolver and a manual-safety 1911 is not necesssarily a good idea.

So I am sticking with 1911s year round. If I can find a Scandium framed S&W Commander sized 1911, I will grab that and enjoy the weight loss. If not, I'll stick with what i have, because I shoot it reasonably well and I know it works.
orionengnr is offline  
Old December 23, 2011, 11:31 AM   #38
Junior member
Join Date: March 25, 2011
Posts: 463
Id take a gun over a knife anyday
Inside a ten-twelve foot radius, that is debatable. A fixed blade knife in the hands of someone who knows where to put it and is physically capable of fighting, well, I put my money on him. Or her.

A folder is like a Christmas tree ornament. Pretty covered in misletoe, but useless if you lose motor control when shtf.
secret_agent_man is offline  
Old December 23, 2011, 03:35 PM   #39
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Originally Posted by secret_agent_man
A folder is like a Christmas tree ornament. Pretty covered in misletoe, but useless if you lose motor control when shtf.
That's not always true. Between assisted open, waved, and those who practice with folders specifically, they can be just as dangerous.
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old December 23, 2011, 06:57 PM   #40
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
Long winters here in the Great Lake State. But the only thing that changes for me is to generally wear my shirts tucked in, as my Kimber UCDP still rides in it's Don Hume JIT slide at 3:30 along with it's P32 counterpart in rt back pocket. Coat covers all.
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old December 23, 2011, 10:06 PM   #41
Junior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2011
Posts: 14
though my clothing may bulk up a little during cold weather, my CCW's do not change. It just makes it easier to hide my shoulder holstered S&W 686plus (back up CCW) for some time now my 2 go everywhere knives are a Benchmade folder in my strong side front pocket and a Cold Steel Double Agent neck knife fixed around my neck w/ gutted 550 cord. You can't go wrong with 2 firearms and 2 knives. A nice heavy leather jacket (strechy waist especially) really makes my back up 357 dissappear by the way.
paranoia911 is offline  
Old December 24, 2011, 01:01 AM   #42
Join Date: February 11, 2011
Posts: 28
This is my first year carrying, I've got an XDM9C. I carried it in the NC summer w/ a polo style shirt in my Crossbreed Supertuck IWB (I never wear just a T-Shirt), ironically I found that most of my winter sweaters fit a bit more fitted than my polo's and buttondowns that I wore in the spring/summer/fall and are posing a problem with carrying concealed, so I've resorted to wearing the same shirts in the winter plus a Jacket/Coat (we've had a pretty mild start to winter so far) or hooded sweatshirt. I plan on purchasing some new "winter" clothing this year to dress around my Carry weapon, just like I had to do with my pants when I first started carrying, however I'm looking to expand my gun "collection" and get something a bit thinner and smaller (Kahr CM9, Beretta Nano are the top of the list) in 2012 just to have options.

NCSU08MS3 is offline  
Old December 24, 2011, 08:13 AM   #43
Ben Towe
Senior Member
Join Date: March 6, 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 1,128
Just started carrying concealed so all of it has been in cool weather. Full sized 1911 in a Galco FLETCH High Ride completely disappears under even a light lined shirt, as well as my new presentation jacket and my heavy winter coat. I am contemplating purchasing a Crossbreed IWB setup as well.
'Merica: Back to back World War Champs
Ben Towe is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:13 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08040 seconds with 7 queries