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Old April 26, 2011, 01:01 PM   #1
Glockeroo
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According to this, 9mm is not enough stopping power

Update - I think I can now disagree.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/849728/posts

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Old April 26, 2011, 01:08 PM   #2
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Hatcher didn't have access to modern expanding bullets, though I think Hatcher did give bonus points if a bullet had a flat tip rather than being roundnose. I think Jeff Cooper tried to update Hatcher, by giving extra "form" points for JHPs, but like TKO the formula is essentially measuring momentum, so big bullets will do better than small ones. I was listening to an interview with trainer Gabe Suarez, and he's convinced that caliber and weight don't matter, if we're discussing the typical .36" - .45" handgun cartridges. He said forensics cannot determine the caliber of a projectile based on the wound characterisitics, so why give up the capacity advantage of 9mm for a .45?

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Old April 26, 2011, 01:15 PM   #3
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There is no such thing as "stopping" power really.

The only thing that matters is does the bullet have enough penetration to hit something vital. Heavier bullets tend to carry more momentum for better penetration. Most handgun rounds aren't ideal for their intended use, they compromise for convenience.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:17 PM   #4
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Hatcher didn't have access to modern expanding bullets, though I think Hatcher did give bonus points if a bullet had a flat tip rather than being roundnose. I think Jeff Cooper tried to update Hatcher, but giving extra "form" points for JHPs, but like TKO the formula is essentially measuring momentum, so big bullets will do better than small ones. I was listening to an interview with trainer Gabe Suarez, and he's convinced that caliber and weight don't matter, if we're discussing the typical .36" - .45" handgun cartridges. He said forensics cannot determine the caliber of a projectile based on the wound characterisitics, so why give up the capacity advantage of 9mm for a .45?
In your opinion, am I ok with carrying Corbon and Speer Gold dot JHP's? I'm not a ballistics expert nor read up on it much. I just practice being a good shot. Plenty of people are taken out by 9mm's and even smaller daily, so I've always felt comfortable with 9mm as my defense round.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:19 PM   #5
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*sign* I just saw this the other day, a guy said, okay you stand in front of my pee shooter(380auto) and tell me it didnt hurt. Anybody getting shot in the head is going to have a bad day, no matter what caliber.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:22 PM   #6
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*sign* I just saw this the other day, a guy said, okay you stand in front of my pee shooter(380auto) and tell me it didnt hurt. Anybody getting shot in the head is going to have a bad day, no matter what caliber.
This is how I feel. No one wants to be shot by anything. A .22 is big enough to get any criminal hauling ass. I don't think they'll stop to say "Oh, that's only a .22. I can take a couple of rounds of that; no problem."

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Old April 26, 2011, 01:26 PM   #7
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This how I feel. No one wants to be shot by anything. A .22 is big enough to get any criminal hauling ass. I don't think they'll stop to say "Oh, that's only a .22. I can take a couple of rounds of that; no problem."
+1
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:27 PM   #8
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Oh my.......here we go. The older I get, the more I know how wise my dad was when he said keep your opinions to yourself. Find what works for you. Offer one-on-one, non-internet advice when approached by someone in need and let the heavy end drag.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJgunowner:
There is no such thing as "stopping" power really.

The only thing that matters is does the bullet have enough penetration to hit something vital. Heavier bullets tend to carry more momentum for better penetration. Most handgun rounds aren't ideal for their intended use, they compromise for convenience.
This.





"Stopping power" is an unquantifiable phenomena for many reasons. There are an almost infinite number of variables in determining a bullet's effect on the human anatomy and there are many other variables in addition to this that influence a bullet's efficacy.

While many attempt to use KE, momentum or some other contrived unitary value to express the quantity, none of these are adequate since all of them lack the practical/mathematic dimensionality to correctly describe such a complex and all encompassing phenomena.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:44 PM   #10
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My car doesn't have enough stopping power.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:48 PM   #11
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I agree. Don't get me wrong, I love the 9mm and think it is suitable for the taking of game, but it was never designed for stopping power. Those go to the big and slow bullets, or BMB bullets (cough .45).
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:49 PM   #12
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The only thing I would trusty be a one shot man stopper is a.50 bmg or larger.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:51 PM   #13
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Can’t remember whose signature it was, and I am sure I’ll bastardize it some, so forgive me. Either way, it had me lol.

Armatures argue caliber – Professionals discuss tactics.

Can’t help but think there’s some truth in that!
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:56 PM   #14
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Can’t remember whose signature it was, and I am sure I’ll bastardize it some, so forgive me. Either way, it had me lol.

Armatures argue caliber – Professionals discuss tactics.

Can’t help but think there’s some truth in that!
Oh give me a break. Always a smart ass reply by so called experts. The way you became an expert was to learn, correct? If so, then please stop with the arrogance. You weren't always an expert.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:58 PM   #15
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I think there is such a thing as stopping power and I think there is such a thing as knockdown power, too, only nothing comes with a guarantee that it is. Which is a problem.

Naturally there's more to it than that and, sometimes, less. I for one do not distinguish very much the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP, by which I mean they are both about the same as far as actually shooting them, if the pistols are pretty close. And I certainly can't tell the difference between a hollow point and a full metal jacket when I shoot them, or even a hard cast lead, for those that like to go that route. But those two hardly exhaust the possibilities.

I've just been looking at a .40 pistol, a Johnny-come-lately when it comes to handgun calibers. I'm thinking seriously because it is in a model I've been thinking about for a few months, only which is expensive when new. I'd rather have a 9mm but at something like 55% of a new one, I will considered the alternatives. Except for one thing.

A .40 S&W cartridge is a high pressure load, relative to a .45 ACP. That is something that makes a .45 auto not so hard to shoot. Yet I learn that a 9mm operates at pretty much the same pressure and I've been shooting 9mm handguns for the last 40 years and I've never had a problem. Maybe I'm worried about nothing, just like I don't worry about stopping power.
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Old April 26, 2011, 02:03 PM   #16
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Jeepers Glockeroo, don’t take it so personal! If anything, the signature is a way of putting things into perspective.

If I am being arrogant it’s because you have labeled me (incorrectly) as a an expert,
Quote:
("You weren't always an expert")
which would allow me to be!! lol! Thanks!
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Old April 26, 2011, 02:06 PM   #17
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+ 1 ice monkey....even tho it was a smart one
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Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition..
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Old April 26, 2011, 02:49 PM   #18
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22 cal is not enough to get a criminal hauling ass. If you think someone high on drugs or even intox is going to be stopped by a 22 or even a 380 your kidding yourself. Yeah, if someone is attacking you with a knife and you shoot them 6x with a 22 don't think for a second that will stop them. Yeah, they may die 6 hours later but if your injured or dead too how did that 22 help you? I've been in LE for over 20yrs I have seen many many people shot with all kinds of guns the 9mm is not the holy grail of self defense. Some died some lived. One shot stopping power is everything. I once saw a guy shot in the leg by another BG with a 45. His fema bone was shattered. Did he die? nope. Did it stop him dead in his tracks? YUP! If i had a choice between a 22 pistol and a stun gun I would take the stun gun everytime!
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Old April 26, 2011, 02:51 PM   #19
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I think there is such a thing as stopping power and I think there is such a thing as knockdown power
Unless your using a howitzer...

Knockdown doesn't exist with any shoulder or hand fired gun. Any round that could knockdown the person shot, would also knockdown the person who fired. Physics trumps make believe.

Now if you want to call it "FALL DOWN" that I could accept.
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Old April 26, 2011, 03:28 PM   #20
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Oh give me a break. Always a smart ass reply by so called experts. The way you became an expert was to learn, correct? If so, then please stop with the arrogance. You weren't always an expert.
LOL
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Old April 26, 2011, 03:52 PM   #21
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C0untZer0, let me recommend a good brake shop . . .

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Old April 26, 2011, 03:55 PM   #22
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No, I still have to disagree. I take it then that no one here has ever been knocked down--or stopped dead (figuratively) in their tracks. It happens to deer, though usually when hit with a rifle bullet, and it can happen to a man. Only, again, I can't guarantee it happening.

The problem is in describing what happens when someone get shot. If you get hit hard enough on your head, you will be knocked down. That is knockdown power. No matter that you might immediately spring to your feet madder than a hornet. You were knocked down. To say you merely fell down after being hit with that baseball bat is playing with words. Same thing with a stop. Ever been in a fight? I guarantee you it is possible to knock someone down even without shooting them. You can also trip them, too. That makes it easier. But unlike the guys in the old movies, I also guarantee that you will likely lose your hat and you just might end up with a little of your own blood on your face and maybe with a few scars that will add character to your face for the rest of your life unless you're so good that he'll "never lay a hand on you."

I'm wasn't that good and I have the scars. I got knocked down a couple of times.

No, I'm no saying that it is a guaranteed thing either or that you can't claim someone just happened to trip and fall coincidental with being shot with a pistol bullet and I definately won't claim someone can be blown backwards in spite of photographic evidence that it can happen. And yes, maybe that soldier just happen to trip and fall backwards at just the moment he was hit and so on and so forth, when most of the others just dropped in their tracks--stopped. Any claim to the contrary is suggesting that shooting someone has little effect.
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Old April 26, 2011, 04:05 PM   #23
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22 cal is not enough to get a criminal hauling ass. If you think someone high on drugs or even intox is going to be stopped by a 22 or even a 380 your kidding yourself. Yeah, if someone is attacking you with a knife and you shoot them 6x with a 22 don't think for a second that will stop them. Yeah, they may die 6 hours later but if your injured or dead too how did that 22 help you? I've been in LE for over 20yrs I have seen many many people shot with all kinds of guns the 9mm is not the holy grail of self defense. Some died some lived. One shot stopping power is everything. I once saw a guy shot in the leg by another BG with a 45. His fema bone was shattered. Did he die? nope. Did it stop him dead in his tracks? YUP! If i had a choice between a 22 pistol and a stun gun I would take the stun gun everytime!
It's nice you're in law enforcement and all but let's be realistic here. The average person being shot at is hauling ass. You would haul ass. The odds of a civilian coming across a super high psycho is slim. On average, the perp will take off if gunshots are being fired at him/her. You know this, and so do I.

Last edited by Glockeroo; April 26, 2011 at 05:15 PM.
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Old April 26, 2011, 04:19 PM   #24
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22 cal is not enough to get a criminal hauling ass. If you think someone high on drugs or even intox is going to be stopped by a 22 or even a 380 your kidding yourself. Yeah, if someone is attacking you with a knife and you shoot them 6x with a 22 don't think for a second that will stop them. Yeah, they may die 6 hours later but if your injured or dead too how did that 22 help you? I've been in LE for over 20yrs I have seen many many people shot with all kinds of guns the 9mm is not the holy grail of self defense. Some died some lived. One shot stopping power is everything. I once saw a guy shot in the leg by another BG with a 45. His fema bone was shattered. Did he die? nope. Did it stop him dead in his tracks? YUP! If i had a choice between a 22 pistol and a stun gun I would take the stun gun everytime!
Sorry but you are so very wrong..........

Any handgun regardless of caliber is enough to get MOST criminals hauling butt.

Even the 22lr with proper shot placement can and will stop a bad guy.

My coworker shot an armed robber in the leg with a 45acp jhp and he RAN LIKE A JACK RABBIT. Seems it didn't hit the bone. Hence shot placement is key even with your beloved 45acp.

And the most ridiculous of all is the stun gun over a 22 pistol comment. No need for comment on this one.

Closing note. While the 22lr is not the ideal defensive caliber it is adequate for most defensive gun usages. The rimfire ignition system is not as reliable as centerfire. The light weight and small diameter of the cartridge make shot placement extremely critical with the 22lr. While very possible, perfect shot placement is difficult under gunfight conditions. These are the true facts about the 22lr
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Old April 26, 2011, 04:42 PM   #25
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Oh, good Lord. The nine isn't enough! The nine isn't enough!

You want some cheese with that wine?

People are killed by the "stopping power" of the lowly 9mm every single day. It's not my first choice, but it sure beats using a baseball bat.

Stopping the attacker from attacking you and/or your loved ones has more to do with shot placement than the caliber of the handgun. The cheap and accessible 9mm gives the owner the advantage of having more rounds in his handgun and having the opportunity to get more rounds into his attacker as opposed to an equal-sized .40 or .45 pistol.

It also gives the owner more financial freedom to practice with his/her weapon. Being familiar with your firearm, its tendencies and handling characteristics, and being able to properly deploy your weapon is way more important than caliber. If you can't shoot it correctly and accurately, what good is it?

The handgun is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less.
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