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Old August 28, 2000, 02:57 PM   #1
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On a previous post, I put a real life experience, where my wife went down a hall to her office when she saw some BG's start to put on their balaclavas (ski masks) on. Her office was in the opposite direction of the cashiers area. Each time for her, she had to react differently depending on where she was at the time the BG's came in. (The BG's hit the credit union at least 9 times over a 6 month period. Must have been practicing for the real banks.)
One response to that post was that it depends on whether or not you have a gun in your hand when TSHTF...the balloon goes up.
I know what my wife did was a calculated risk but just freezing in place and putting your hands up is a calculated risk too.
What say you, gentlemen and gentlewomen of the board? What are some options that you could respond with when 4 or 5 armed BG's hit the entrance of your office/store/building and you see them coming. The BG's are at your 6 o'clock (12 feet away, they are in a hall starting to open the door. The cashiers' area is at your 3 (7 feet away); your office door is at your 9 (10 feet away). The front entrance door is at your 12, but 45+ feet away.
Scenario #1: Your gun is in your office---10 feet away.
Scenario #2: Your gun is on you concealed.

What say you?
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Old August 28, 2000, 04:38 PM   #2
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No expert I.

Immediately turn towards office door and get through it. If no gun, get gun and extra mag from office. Reach defensible area with phone (or exit building and use cel phone) and call police: "armed robbery in progress." Cover door with muzzle until police arrive.

Reasoning: 4-5 potentially armed bad guys in room full of people. They're not gonna drop their weapons at your command when you draw your Sig or what have you, unless you're a Jedi Knight. The best gunfight can be the one everyone walks away from. If they start shooting hostages, well, that's another argument for concealed carry rights(joke). Seriously, I guess you'd have to do some mighty serious assessment of the situation if innocents started getting killed and you were the only armed human being there.


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Old August 29, 2000, 03:29 PM   #3
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Well, my first response is going to be, "Oh, it's going to be one of those days," muttered under my breath. Then, obviously, since these individuals probably had it really rough as kids, I'd try to reason with them and explain that I felt their pain and realized they just wanted the same things we all do. Huh? Oh, sorry, spent too much time looking at the MMM site. OK, for real:
Scenario 1: You don't say, so I'll assume I've not been spotted. That being the case, I'll very discreetly retreat to office, make the call, arm myself, and stand by to render assistance until the police arrive.
Scenario 2: Same answer, essentially.
Reasoning: I'm an OK shot, but I don't have the level of training/skill necessary to engage multiple targets. If it has, indeed, hit the fan and innocent lives are in jeopardy all bets are off. I couldn't shave in the mornings if I hadn't at least tried to do everything I could.

"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
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Old August 29, 2000, 11:39 PM   #4
The Observer
Join Date: August 11, 2000
Location: Pacific Rim
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If an armed men (say 4 to 5 is about to enter my office "it depends how big the office") what shall I do.

In my case that I am the proprietor of small office, if I determined that these armed group are hold-uppers, I will not give them a chance to draw their weapon, I will engage them immediately rather then they will robbed us and kill us inside the office thereafter. that is why I am so observant to all people enterig my office. Four to five targets I think is not that hard to engage if just aremed with psitols also. My principle is, I better kill this BG's and explain in court later on, rather then I am the victim. that is why I have my carry weapon to defend my life and property. That is why carrying weapon is not just fo the sake of carrying it thinking that there is only one BG you will engage just in case.

But if, you are just one of the employees inside even you have CCW, it is not your obligations to engage the BG's for it will create only a bigger casualty (but again it depends on the scenario, time and place) if necessary to do such actions. But in my case, I will surely engage them.
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Old August 30, 2000, 04:53 PM   #5
Art Eatman
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It looks like I'd have somewhere under 0.1 seconds to head for the phone or draw and start shooting. Since the scenario has me *knowing* in advance that these are criminals with guns, it appears to me that legality of using deadly force is not an issue.

I practice halfway regularly on spread-out multiple targets. When pushing myself to my limits, I can get at worst one hit on each of six targets with 8 or 9 shots. My "game" is to shoot each target once, and put repeats into one or two of them.

I can certainly be in tragic error, but it is my belief in my shooting that if I start first, and a group is bunched up, I own them.

What I do know is that if I worked in such a hazardous location, I would practice far more regularly, and more strenuously in each session. I would also give a lot of thought to the location of furniture, and any other security measures that might help *prior* to any need for action.

All that said: Were I a bad guy, I would case the joint, and possibly use some simple disguise and enter alone--thereby getting the drop on whoever's inside and making it easy for the rest of the group.

Regards, Art
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Old August 30, 2000, 06:03 PM   #6
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I don't think you can assume the legalities are done away with. I didn't assume it in my answer. You certainly can't assume it in the real world.

The issue is at what point in the sequence do you draw your gun. If you draw and shoot all or any BGs before they draw, you're in legal trouble. I'm licensed to carry a gun, not stop crime before it happens. If you wait until one or more draws, you're in even more trouble, if you're still in the room with a holstered gun.

I hope some more folks weigh in on this.

High regards,

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Old August 30, 2000, 09:39 PM   #7
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I believe I wrote about in hand. My instructor hammered it home quite nicely with demonstrations. things happen quick. I agree with The Observer. no obligation to get killed. As for legalities, the true kind, the right or wrong - shoot/don't shoot, you can decide very quickly. as for the legal technicalities, if you try to sort through that morass, you meat. I am learning to pay attention to all my surroundings all the time. IT'S HARD. But awareness prevents.
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Old August 30, 2000, 09:47 PM   #8
Zach Vonler
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This situation is to me very different from a single gunman in a public place. Against multiple bgs, I think the correct response is to dive to the best cover possible while using your own gun against any of the bgs that come after you. The office is close to ideal, since you can go in there, close the door, use the phone, and the doorway provides a choke point. It's unlikely that that they even care about someone hiding in an office in a bank (unless you're the person that can open the safe or something) and seems even more unlikely they're going to stack and burst through the door. Trying to stay in the open and/or shooting back in this scenarion is suicide IMO, because no matter how good you are you're not five times faster than the slowest bg. I'd feel real bad if I were hiding in an office while people were getting shot, but I think I could convince myself that there really wasn't another option.
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