The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 28, 2017, 10:44 PM   #1
cjsoccer3
Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2015
Posts: 26
Ruger 454 Casull 5 inch vs Smith & Wesson 460 5 inch

So I'm caught between the two. I live in Va and am looking for a woods defense gun. The largest game we have here is black bear. The Ruger is 2.9 pounds. The Smith is 3.7. I could see myself possibly hunting with it but not in near future. With regards to the Ruger it comes with scope rings, and the Smith needs an aftermarket base to get a scope up. I also wonder if the 460s comp would mess with a scope.

I don't want to just shrug off the additional option of 460, but I feel like 454 cuts it for everything in Va. With the lesser weight and rings, it seems like Ruger is where I should go, but then again could somebody talk me one way or another?

Last edited by cjsoccer3; August 29, 2017 at 06:59 AM.
cjsoccer3 is offline  
Old August 28, 2017, 11:16 PM   #2
ChiefTJS
Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2009
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Posts: 85
Seems to me that the .454 has taken every game animal on the planet so unless you just need something to brag about the ruger seems the better deal.
ChiefTJS is offline  
Old August 29, 2017, 12:28 AM   #3
CDR_Glock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2010
Posts: 450
Ruger 454 Casull 5 inch vs Smith & Wesson 460 5 inch

I have both calibers but I have 3 454 Casulls in 7.5", 5" and the 2.5" Alaskan.

A Ruger Toklat 5" 454 Casull. The gun handles recoil very well and if you want to hunt, it does come with scope rings. The gun is overbuilt and will handle heavy loads. It shoots 454 Casull, 45 Colt +P and 45 Colt. The additional advantage is that it has a 6 round capacity. For mine, I put a SS Weigand rail for a red dot.

The S&W 460 has the advantage of shooting 460, 454 Casull, 45 Colt +P, and 45 Colt. At 5" you are giving up some velocity, though, but it is more portable. The disadvantage is that it gives up one round compared to a 454 Casull with a 5 round capacity. I have a Weigand SS Rail for it with a red dot.

The 454 is more than capable, but the 460 is more versatile because of more loads that it can shoot, particularly, as a hunting cartridge for longer distances. The biggest advantage I see with the 460 in the longer barrels is the ability to be a flat shooter out to 200 yards. Mine is 8 3/8", and it's what I plan to use to hit deer with a 200 grain bullet. The Ruger Toklat or Alaskan 454 will be my backup.

Either would be great for defense, but I give an advantage to the 454 for capacity. Both would be good for hunting, with an advantage to the 460 for variety of cartridges and its weight.

I hope you're a reloader. It makes for a more accurate round for your gun, plus you can load for the various rounds that each is capable of shooting.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Last edited by CDR_Glock; August 29, 2017 at 05:54 AM.
CDR_Glock is offline  
Old August 29, 2017, 01:00 AM   #4
Cosmodragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2013
Location: Northeastern US
Posts: 1,092
Using the same .454 ammo, the XVR should be easier to control and more comfortable to shoot. The "affordable" 200-grain .460 ammo from Hornady will make a heck of a fireball at five inches but it shouldn't be terrible in hand. Even as a relatively light hollow-point, that load should be plenty for whatever you come across.

Some of the guys in my shooting group have taken to making jokes about Zeus throwing thunderbolts every time we bring out the XVR. It is our favorite jug buster by far and that lighter load has performed admirably against all sorts of junk. I haven't hunted with it but I imagine the same rules apply. The longer barrel would be better. A scope can extend your range but at the end of the day, you are still hunting with a handgun and want to make your kills as quickly and humanely as possible.
Cosmodragoon is offline  
Old August 29, 2017, 02:58 PM   #5
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,658
Typical, I know, but I have to ask: Is .454 or .460 all that necessary for Black Bear?

If it's what you want, then fine, but I imagine .44Mag in a 4-6" package would be more than enough power and carry the full 6 rounds and be cheaper to load up and lighter to carry... (some might even say .357, but I wouldn't know)

Ruger has the 4.2" and the 5.5" Redhawk and SRH and S&W have several offerings (Model 29 and 629, amongst others, I believe)

As I said, if you want the .45 cal, then go for it and ignore everything before and after this sentence, but if you're open to options and things like weight (and price) are a consideration, perhaps broaden your search.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old August 29, 2017, 10:41 PM   #6
50 shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2002
Location: SoCal PRK
Posts: 692
As CDR Glock pointed out, the S&W 460 will shoot both. So you can save yourself some money and buy one pistol and shoot both calibers.

If you plan on hunting get the 8 3/8" barrel and a nice scope with the money you'll save buying one pistol. Also agree that reloading for it will save you money and you'll be able to make better ammo. There are alot of different .45 bullets out there and you can taylor the ammo to whatever you're shooting at.

Just be sure to keep the bullets in the factory boxes, some of them can't be pushed at the same velocities as others. You'll want ones that have a thicker jacket if you plan on shooting them at velocities that could separate jacket from core.
__________________
I see the world thru bloodshot eyes
Streets filled with blood from distant lies
The dogs of war never compromise,
No time for rearranging.
50 shooter is offline  
Old August 29, 2017, 11:01 PM   #7
jackmoser65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2014
Posts: 528
In a heavy duty hunting double action I'll take the Ruger any day of the week. For a more traditional double action Smith and Wesson gets the nod. In this case the Ruger is an extremely practical and even packable revolver with the perfect setup for optics. The Smith is an overweight revolver trying to be a rifle.
jackmoser65 is offline  
Old August 29, 2017, 11:34 PM   #8
TruthTellers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 913
I'm having similar thoughts of .454 vs .460, but in a single shot Thompson Center.

IMO, I don't see the benefit of .460 over .454 in a revolver. I do in a rifle because the .460 is pretty much equivalent in power when you compare it to a similar weight bullet in a standard pressure .45-70 load.

But we're focusing on revolvers here.

The .454 is available in more than just Ruger, which will speak to ammo availability in stores, and Ruger's are most affordable. The S&W .460 revolvers will cost you almost double what a Ruger Super Redhawk will and will not perform much better.

For a flat shooter out to longer distances, yeah, it will do better, but I would just find a way to decrease the distance to make a shot with .454 more accurate.

The biggest problem with the .460 revolver is weight. They are super heavy guns. The weight will make it a boat anchor if this is just for woods defense. You could get a .480 Ruger in a lighter weight and have even more penetration with the heavier bullets.

Bottom line with .460: Lose a round and gain a pound.
__________________
Any good revolver > Any good semi auto
TruthTellers is offline  
Old August 30, 2017, 04:55 PM   #9
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 3,393
With a 5'' barrel, I doubt if there's much difference performance wise. The Smith will be more pleasant to shoot and more control-able due to more weight. It's when you get to the long pipes that the .460 really shines. For woods defense where there is nuttin' bigger than Black bear, I see no reason to go with either, as .44 mag is more than sufficient and ammo is inexpensive enough that one can practice and get proficient drawing and shooting quickly in D.A.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old August 30, 2017, 09:35 PM   #10
disseminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 440
I agree, 4-6" 44 Mag for defense, 8-3/8" 460 XVR for hunting.

I own both, that's what i would do.
disseminator is offline  
Old August 31, 2017, 12:52 AM   #11
Cosmodragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2013
Location: Northeastern US
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
Typical, I know, but I have to ask: Is .454 or .460 all that necessary for Black Bear?

If it's what you want, then fine, but I imagine .44Mag in a 4-6" package would be more than enough power ... (some might even say .357, but I wouldn't know)
Necessary? Probably not. So long as a person can handle it, the added power might increase something I call "degree of relief" should you be unfortunate enough to end up in an inescapable confrontation with wildlife.

I've spent a fair amount of time in the woods across the Northeastern United States, excepting Maine. I haven't seen too many black bear and most were probably under 300lbs. That doesn't mean there aren't bigger ones out there. It just means that based on the ones I've seen, I feel like .357 magnum or even .357 Sig could do the job (so long as we do ours). I'd certainly feel better with more power but I probably won't be carrying it unless I'm already bringing it out for recreational purposes. The biggest animal I see are moose but I've heard of people dropping them with .40 S&W.

If I was planning on spending time outdoors in a place with bigger or more aggressive wildlife, I might consider anything from Ruger Alaskan size up through that 5" XVR. If I were already committed to carrying a brick and a half, I'd probably say "go big or go home" and pick the XVR. That, and it's better at pulling double duty with recreation.
Cosmodragoon is offline  
Old August 31, 2017, 03:41 PM   #12
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,658
Quote:
So long as a person can handle it, the added power might increase something I call "degree of relief" should you be unfortunate enough to end up in an inescapable confrontation with wildlife.
I think that relief would be wholly psychological rather than factual. Surely anything from .44Mag up would give consistent pass-through on that size animal...

Once you reach that stage, how fast that heavy bullet is still travelling once its traversed its target is pretty redundant, unless it hits another living organism in the process.

But, ultimately, it's the OP's pocket that will shoulder the burden so it's their choice.
As it happens, faced with that choice myself, I'd go SRH .454...

Believe it or not, I like the looks!!
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old August 31, 2017, 05:07 PM   #13
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,358
As long as you don't have an infestation of giant African game or large dinosaurs running around the 454 is more than enough cartridge for anything in the woods. Black bears can be dispatched quickly with a 45 ACP so I doubt they will notice a difference in the two calibers you are comparing. Now the guns are different enough that I would not even consider the Smith for a steady diet of maximum pressure rounds. The Ruger is built strong enough to handle a steady diet of full power loads for a couple of lifetimes.

I wonder if Smith has the same warnings about frequently using full power loads in that gun as they do in other revolvers and light weight semi autos?
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old August 31, 2017, 09:34 PM   #14
Johnny Falcon
Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 66
I would take the Toklat every time, just based on the more practical dimensions.
Johnny Falcon is offline  
Old August 31, 2017, 10:54 PM   #15
Cosmodragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2013
Location: Northeastern US
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
I think that relief would be wholly psychological rather than factual.
"Degree of relief" is definitely psychological. Like a lot of things that come up on gun forums, it's just another facet of where we feel comfortable in the compromise of what can be carried versus what it can do. I shared where I come down for my woods time. There is a reason I suggested keeping an eye on "double duty" with respect to recreation in this case.
Cosmodragoon is offline  
Old September 12, 2017, 10:24 AM   #16
Ruger45LC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 574
I had a Toklat and it was possibly one of the most accurate guns I've ever owned, I do mildly regret getting out of it. To me the 460 S&W is almost clownish, if I'm getting into something that requires a bigger frame, make it a 500 any day. The 454 is more than enough medicine for almost any handgunner.
Ruger45LC is offline  
Old September 12, 2017, 09:42 PM   #17
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 17,167
Just a friendly question, what is your experience with big bore handguns, .44Mag and larger???
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 13, 2017, 01:06 AM   #18
Cosmodragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2013
Location: Northeastern US
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
To me the 460 S&W is almost clownish, if I'm getting into something that requires a bigger frame, make it a 500 any day.
If you want to push mass, the 500 is great. The 460 pushes velocity and, at least for me, it does so with enough mass to be anything but "clownish". Now, I haven't tried every load out there and I have much more experience with 460 than I do 500. However, my limited experience has shown me that 460 is more enjoyable for me to shoot. I know I'm not alone on that and in my estimation, recreation is the practical reality for most of us (or at least most of our use) when it comes to these hand-cannons.
Cosmodragoon is offline  
Old September 13, 2017, 06:32 PM   #19
disseminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 440
IME the 460 is much more enjoyable to shoot than the 454 Casull. It also laps it by a few hundred feet per second and softer recoil.

I can shoot 454 Casull in my 460 XCR, but don't because the recoil is sharp and nasty instead of a nice solid push like the 460. It is an often heard criticism of the 454 that is has nasty sharp recoil.

I can't say what a short barrel 460 would be like, but the XVR is very easy to shoot. If there is a down side it would be the muzzle blast which you will have with the 454 as well.
disseminator is offline  
Old September 13, 2017, 08:02 PM   #20
SA1911
Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 28
Hi cjsoccer,

I have fired a Freedom Arms 7.5" .454 Casull exactly 3 times. After the 3rd round, I put the gun down on my friend's bench & never looked at it again.

I was unable to tame recoil of a 6" S&W .44 Mag. I sold it. No regrets.

My advice is to shoot guns you're thinking about buying before you do so.

Best of luck to you.
SA1911 is offline  
Old September 13, 2017, 09:18 PM   #21
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,352
This is as far as I go with Magnums.



Deaf
__________________
“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old September 13, 2017, 09:33 PM   #22
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,040
Quote:
Just a friendly question, what is your experience with big bore handguns, .44Mag and larger???
__________________
That is a darn good question.

I was talking with a shooting bud this week who has a ginormous gun collection. He works at a gun store primarily to get the discount. He leaves most of his paycheck at work!

He said he has all the 50 calibers, (like 500 S&W), all the 475, 450's, etc. He did say that out of all of them the 454 Casull has the worst recoil impulse. He thinks the recoil impulse is so sharp because the Casull operates around 60,000 psia. None of these big bangers are pleasant in any way to shoot. Shoot enough of them and the bones in your wrist will fuse, or so I have heard. And to think that I don't like the recoil of a 44 mag, that cartridge must compare to these cannon rounds like a .22lr to a 30-06.

So, have you shot a 454 Casull? You ought to go through a box of 20, or 50, before you buy one.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old September 13, 2017, 09:47 PM   #23
disseminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 440
Quote:
So, have you shot a 454 Casull? You ought to go through a box of 20, or 50, before you buy one.
Very good advice!
disseminator is offline  
Old September 14, 2017, 09:11 AM   #24
Radny97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2015
Posts: 645
I agree with the earlier posts that the 454 is the way to go. The 460 is so much heavier and is really better set up as a hunting revolver, not woods carry like your thinking with a 5 inch gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Radny97 is online now  
Old September 14, 2017, 12:17 PM   #25
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 17,167
it's been a couple weeks, and the OP has not returned...either he picked one, or abandoned the idea. Or maybe he shot one, and is waiting for his hand to heal before typing a reply??
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12132 seconds with 9 queries