Soft target penetration: 9mm carbine vs .223 carbine

[Delaware_Dan]

I was curious to see what people thought would penetrate more, or over penetrate if you will. A 9mm FMJ, or a .223 FMJ both shot out of 16 inch barrels. I am on the fence about this one, and can't figure out which one would penetrate more. I figure the 9mm is heaver, but the .223 is faster. Just to throw a variable or two in there, what about a 9mm JHP vs .223 FMJ? 9mm JHP vs .223 JHP? 9mm FMJ vs .223 JHP? I hope this comparison is not way off, but I can't seem to put my finger on the "winner". The "senario" would be in a house, townhome, or apartment. What do you guys think?

[chris in va]

The Box o'Truth might have a comparison, check it out.

[AK103K]

.223 will go through pistol caliber vests, 9mm wont. That cinched it for me.

I also prefer things that do "over penetrate", as I'd like to be able to shoot through things if I have to, to get to what I want to shoot.

Rumor has it, 9mm will penetrate some things .223 wont, but if it wont penetrate a vest, I dont see the point.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Delaware Dan

I was curious to see what people thought would penetrate more, or over penetrate if you will. A 9mm FMJ, or a .223 FMJ both shot out of 16 inch barrels.

You're asking if a round nose pistol bullet might penetrate as much or more than a spitzer shaped rifle bullet traveling at least twice as fast?

Is this a trick question?

[jmr40]

The rifle bullet will fragment at the very high velocities encountered at close range. I won't say for sure which will penetrate the most, but would bet they are VERY close

[Delaware_Dan]

You're asking if a round nose pistol bullet might penetrate as much or more than a spitzer shaped rifle bullet traveling at least twice as fast?

Is this a trick question?

Nope. I was asking about over penetrating a soft target into drywall.

[MLeake]

boxotruth showed that while 5.56mm penetrates kevlar well enough, it doesn't go very far through drywall.

High speed plus light bullet seem to equal fragmentation.

Bullet path for 5.56mm after drywall penetration was shorter than handgun or shotgun rounds (including shot) at close range; did produce a big damage channel, though. (The shot at close range acted as a solid mass, even the birdshot, and went through more layers of drywall.)

[MCCALL911]

At the bottom of the following page, you'll see links to ballistic gelatin penetration results of military 9mm and 2 versions of military 5.56mm.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Looks like 9mm ball went to 70 cm (27.5") even with some tumbling.
The two 5.56mm went 34-36 cm (13.3"-14.1") with considerable fragmentation.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Delaware Dan

Nope. I was asking about over penetrating a soft target into drywall.

Drywall is not "soft." It's quite hard, in fact ... just thin.

[Delaware_Dan]

You are misunderstanding me. Humans are "soft".

[Aguila Blanca]

I must be misunderstanding you. If the question is about humans, why are you asking about sheetrock?

[elkman06]

Saw an info program on this. 9mm and 45acp both penetrated more sheets of sheetrock than the .223 as it fragmented and just sprayed after about 2 sheets.
I suspect both ballistic gelatin and humans would be entirely different.
elkman06

[Delaware_Dan]

I must be misunderstanding you. If the question is about humans, why are you asking about sheetrock

Seems that way, no worries. My questions was,

about over penetrating a soft target (human) into drywall (after the fact)

[StrongSideArmsInc]

Ballistic test have discovered many intresting things.
There comes a point in velocity, were a bullet, when added said velocity becomes harder than the target it hits, this is call sectional density.

For example; if you fire a 40 gr, .224 bullet @ 2800FPS (.22 Hornet) it will penetrate twice the amount of ballistic gelatin then a 40 gr .224 bullet @ 3600 fps. (.223 Remington)

Even though lead is harder than soft tissue, it has been discovered once you add enough velocity, the soft tissue at some point will become harder than the lead.
Now you can change factors involved, but for example, a 9mm 124grn bullet fired out of a MP5 will penetrate more than an AR15 in 223.

Factors that you can change are size of projectile, weight of projectile, material used in construction of projectile, velocity, barrel length, and barrel twist.

You can't compare penetration factors when adding a ballistic vest into the test. A ballistic vest is easy to penetrate, just cut through one with a knife. A ballistic vest works on the principal of the bullet twisting. The interwoven layers of kevlar, Zyleema, and Dyleema are there to capture the bullet, by wrapping them up.
A good test to prove this is simple. Take a 60lb compound bow, and you can fire an arrow through a car door, but take the same bow and try and fire it through one layer of carpet. It won't go through, because the carpet acts in the same way the vest does.
Hope that helps.

[wpcexpert]

Remember the water test done on Myth Busters? Even the 50 BMG barely penetrated 3 feet (with no discernable bullet). The pistol rounds and the shutgun rounds did way better. The velocity of the rifle rounds caused them to come apart. Ultimately proving that if you want to shoot something under the water...don't use a rifle.

I don't know how to relate this to the test you are asking about, but the results seem to be consistent with the other dry tests that have been done.

[MCCALL911]

...

[testuser]

Definitely, definitely the .223 will out penetrate the 9mm. If it were the other way around, then the .223 would be unsuitable for military use.

As someone pointed out, that's why the military has moved away from submachine guns to short carbines and personal defense weapons over the last few decades, mainly the threat from soft body armor.

Oddly enough, limited range and penetration is the only thing keeping the 9mm submachine gun from completely disappearing, since it has applications for police use. It's even being challenged there, as some criminals are starting to wear body...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2_2.htm

Sheetrock isn't going to stop a bullet, anyway.

Here's an interesting test, where a .223 frangible is tested...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm

That round still penetrated just as much as a 9mm FMJ. A 9mm HP or 9mm frangible would no doubt penetrate less than that round...

The other thing to consider is range. Say you fire a round and it goes through a window? Or if you shoot through your front door onto the lawn? How far is the bullet traveling? Even a frangible bullet from a .223 will have greater lethal range then a 9mm.

A quick and dirty ballistic calculator summed it up for me. Say both carbines are sighted in for 100 yards. A 9mm fired at 1350 fps has dropped by my entire height by say 250 yards. A .223 from an M4 won't hit the dirt until after 400 yards. As expected, the .223 has a lot more retained energy at long ranges.

Past 100 or 150 yards the 9mm lose a lot of it's ability to penetrate, not so with a .223.

Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols!

[MCCALL911]

Ballistic test have discovered many intresting things.
There comes a point in velocity, were a bullet, when added said velocity becomes harder than the target it hits, this is call sectional density.

No. This is not called "sectional density." Sectional density is the mass of the bullet, in pounds, divided by the square of the bullet diameter.
What you seem to be describing is the resisting force exerted on the bullet by the target during penetration.

For example; if you fire a 40 gr, .224 bullet @ 2800FPS (.22 Hornet) it will penetrate twice the amount of ballistic gelatin then a 40 gr .224 bullet @ 3600 fps. (.223 Remington)

Twice the amount of ballistic gelatin? I'd like to see this test.
The resisting force may do more damage to the bullet at the higher velocity (fragmentation, expansion, etc.) but TWICE the penetration?

The interwoven layers of kevlar, Zyleema, and Dyleema are there to capture the bullet, by wrapping them up.

Could you please explain what "Zyleema" and "Dyleema" are? Sounds a lot like "Unobtanium" to me...

Hope that helps.

Sorry. Not particularly.

Definitely, definitely the .223 will out penetrate the 9mm. If it were the other way around, then the .223 would be unsuitable for military use.

From the ballistic gelatin tests shown in the link I posted above, the two 5.56 military rounds had a lot of fragmentation in addition to making large wound cavities, even though penetration was substantially less than the 9mm ball ammo. This is likely where the possible wounding effectiveness of the 5.56 comes from.

The Box of Truth tests only evaluated performance of the 5.56 in sheetrock. This is vastly different than penetration in ballistic gelatin and soft tissue because the density and compressive strengths are totally different.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Delaware Dan

Seems that way, no worries. My questions was

No, that was not your question. Your question was:

Originally Posted by Delaware Dan

I was curious to see what people thought would penetrate more, or over penetrate if you will. A 9mm FMJ, or a .223 FMJ both shot out of 16 inch barrels. I am on the fence about this one, and can't figure out which one would penetrate more.

Your question did not state "human" or "drywall."

[AK103K]

I think hairs are starting to be split over words here now.

I thought I understood what he was getting at, and either way. I thought the worry was, where the round was going after, if and when it went through anything, and the with the "The "senario" would be in a house, townhome, or apartment." thing in his post, this was obvious.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

In answer to the OP's question, much depends on bullet design; but on average 9mm will out penetrate .223 in ballistics gel. As others pointed out, at very high velocities, the bullet breaks up and the individual fragments shed energy rapidly. A heavier, slower moving bullet that stays together penetrates more.

Anyone who doubts this can check out: www.brassfetcher.com to see for themselves.

[Delaware_Dan]

I think hairs are starting to be split over words here now.

Agreed.

To clear things up, I am questioning the over penetration of the 2 mentioned rounds after passing through a soft (human) target into a "hard" target (walls in a home). I am not concerned about body armor penetration. Hope this clears things up.

[MLeake]

Please bear in mind that bullet construction matters.

55gr 5.56mm isn't a great penetrator (though it does well on most light body armor), but that's why the standard military rounds are heavier, and constructed for penetration.

One of the penetrator rounds will penetrate soft target and then drywall much better than one of the Wal-Mart 55gr rounds.

Same with the 9mm; some bullet types penetrate better than others.

For HD, when overpenetration is a concern, a lightweight frangible or semifrangible 5.56mm should actually be viable.

[JohnKSa]

Images from www.firearmstactical.com

124gr FMJ 9mm


55gr FMJ 5.56


62gr FMJ 5.56


Included for comparison and just for fun. This is a 40grn Lead bullet from a .22LR. Note that it penetrates deeper than either of the 5.56 loadings tested.


It's worth pointing out that the two 5.56 loadings are almost certainly fired from an M16 length barrel, not the M4 carbine. The lower velocity from the carbine might contribute to less fragmentation and therefore more penetration, but without specific testing it's hard to say.

I believe it's safe to say that an FMJ 9mm will have more penetration potential after going through an attacker than an FMJ 5.56/223 bullet would have. Of course, few people recommend FMJ 9mm for self/home defense so the point is probably moot.

[MCCALL911]

Thanks for posting that, John. I didn't know whether I could do that or not, given the current restraints of that lawsuit. :barf:
Those pics tell the tale IMO.