The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 1, 2010, 06:50 PM   #1
James H
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2010
Location: The high plains of Wyoming
Posts: 164
Shooting jacketed bullets after non-jacketed

I read somewhere (I think it might have been in my Stoeger Cougar manual) that you should always clean the bore thoroughly after shooting non-jacketed lead bullets before switching to copper jacketed ones. In some way the copper jacket will cause the lead from the non-jacketed bullet to do damage to the barrel. Is this true? I've never had to think about it before I've owned a .357 magnum where I might be switching between .38 special wadcutters without a jacket to some .357 magnum load with a jacketed bullet.
James H is offline  
Old November 1, 2010, 06:57 PM   #2
Xfire68
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2010
Location: Communist State of IL.
Posts: 1,564
Yes this is true. If you foul the barrel with lead filling the rifling with lead you can cause an increase in pressure when a jacketed bullet is used after.

There are others that will explain this much better then I can.
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF Member

www.aac300blackoutbrass.com A Veteran owned Business.
Xfire68 is offline  
Old November 1, 2010, 07:07 PM   #3
Ideal Tool
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,080
Cleaning after Lead Before Jacketed?

Hello, James H. As Xfire68 posted..if there is severe leading, clean. However, during my IHMSA shooting, I was using a S&W Mod. 27 & S&W Mod.57. For the chickens and pigs, I used cast-bullets. Out on the turkeys and rams, I switched to jacketed. The only thing I did was run a bronze brush through a few passes..but their really wasn,t any lead in there. On the few occasions I forgot, bullet impact remained where it was supposed to..so I probably didn,t even need to do it..force of habit I guess. But again, these cast-bullet loads left NO leading.
Ideal Tool is offline  
Old November 1, 2010, 07:30 PM   #4
James H
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2010
Location: The high plains of Wyoming
Posts: 164
Ok...good to know. Is this the same with .22 lr? I never thought about it before. Are copper jacketed .22 lr bullets considered to be "jacketed" also and should I think about this situation with a 10/22?
James H is offline  
Old November 1, 2010, 08:33 PM   #5
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 26, 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,649
I've been mixing and matching 40 years without once encountering a problem. Is it remotely possible lead deposits could slow down a jacketed bullet enough to increase pressure measurably? Sure. Are all hypothetic pressure increases created equal? I'll believe it when I see it.
__________________
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.
Standing Wolf is offline  
Old November 1, 2010, 10:19 PM   #6
Casimer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2007
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 1,913
The bigger concern w/ going from lead to jacketed IMO is that the jacket can 'iron' any residual lead into your rifling, and this can affect your gun's accuracy. But not all loads are going to lead your bore. Wadcutters at standard pressures shouldn't be a problem. Just inspect the bore beforehand to determine if cleaning is worth the trouble.

And yes, a copper jacketed 22lr could do the same, but it's not likely that you're going to get a lot of leading from 22lr lead rounds.

The purported danger condition is when so much lead has built up that it's forced ahead of a jacketed bullet until the resistance creates a pressure spike in the bore.

Last edited by Casimer; November 2, 2010 at 04:18 PM. Reason: typo
Casimer is offline  
Old November 1, 2010, 11:08 PM   #7
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 8,926
The .22lr bullets are plated, not jacketed-so it's not a concern.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old November 1, 2010, 11:17 PM   #8
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 20,651
Beretta puts a warning against the practice in all their pistol manuals.

Allan Jones of Speer recommends against the practice and states that: "In extreme cases, this can cause irreparable damage. I've seen revolver barrel throats deformed and thin-walled barrels bulged."

Obviously if you have a gun that doesn't lead much you can probably get away with it indefinitely. But that doesn't mean it's safe in any gun. I've seen at least one post, some years back, from a person who claimed to have shot 50 rounds of lead reloads followed by a factory jacketed round to "clean out the lead". It blew up his pistol instead.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 07:28 PM   #9
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 10,907
Anyone who has read old gun magazines through the 70s and early 80s can attest to the fact that most gun writers used to [i]recommend[i] the practice to help clean the lead out before bringing the gun home.

I don't do it and specifically plan any jacketed or plated to be shot before I begin shooting with cast lead.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 07:42 AM   #10
billnourse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 16, 2010
Location: Bloomfield, NM
Posts: 366
When I was shooting PPC with a revolver and lead bullets, I always shot a few jacketed bullets after shooting the lead to wipe any lead from the barrel. I could then just clean the copper from the bore with a copper solvent. Never had a problem in 10,000's of 1,000's of rounds.

Bill
__________________
Cooper 52 25/06, Cooper 52 30/06, Cooper 52 338/06Cooper 57 .17HMR, Remington VS .22/250 all left handed. Rock River Predator Persuit AR-15, 1952 Marlin 336 in 30/30. 2 Kimber 1911, Colt 1911, S&W .357 Mag, Kahr .40 and .380
billnourse is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 06:48 PM   #11
WANT A LCR 22LR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Posts: 389
Going from lead to jacketed can be a issue.

While experimenting with minimum 38 loads I worked up a reliable minimum jacketed and lead loads. ( got one stuck in the bore during the experiment so I know these loads are OK )

Ran about 20 lead then loaded up a cylinder of previously reliable jacketed. Pulled the trigger and promptly had one stick in the bore. Shooting lead got the bore dirty enough to increase friction.
WANT A LCR 22LR is offline  
Old November 4, 2010, 02:43 PM   #12
06lover
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2006
Posts: 3
i fire full power jacketed loads (a couple of cylinders) to remove the lead build up from non-jacketed bullets. fortunately, i've never had any problems.
06lover is offline  
Old November 4, 2010, 02:53 PM   #13
James H
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2010
Location: The high plains of Wyoming
Posts: 164
Bullets stuck in the bore???

Want a lcr....

What? You're having bullets stick in the bore??? Huh?? I thought that's how guns barrels exploded.
James H is offline  
Old November 4, 2010, 03:03 PM   #14
Xfire68
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2010
Location: Communist State of IL.
Posts: 1,564
06lover, I think that is a "Problem" waiting to happen?

It's not hard to run a cleaning rod through your gun after shooting lead is it?

It's that one time that it was a problem that matters!
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF Member

www.aac300blackoutbrass.com A Veteran owned Business.
Xfire68 is offline  
Old November 4, 2010, 06:01 PM   #15
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
Quote:
When I was shooting PPC with a revolver and lead bullets, I always shot a few jacketed bullets after shooting the lead to wipe any lead from the barrel. I could then just clean the copper from the bore with a copper solvent. Never had a problem in 10,000's of 1,000's of rounds.
Same here with the 2 guns I shoot a lot of lead out of. Always followed with a few jacketed. Always changed the amount of cleaning required drastically.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old November 4, 2010, 06:34 PM   #16
Quantrill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 1999
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 725
Years ago I shot "light" jacketed loads after lead bullets. Don't know if it did any good, but it made me feel better. Nowadays, I don't pay it no nevermind what order I shoot them in.
Quantrill is offline  
Old November 4, 2010, 09:10 PM   #17
WANT A LCR 22LR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Posts: 389
Quote:
Want a lcr....

What? You're having bullets stick in the bore??? Huh?? I thought that's how guns barrels exploded.
Only if you fire a second shot. Since I was working up very light loads I took care to only fire one round at a time and checked the bore after.

A revolver sounds much different when the bullet sticks in the bore. ( much quieter )
WANT A LCR 22LR is offline  
Old November 6, 2010, 08:57 AM   #18
atlantis
Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2010
Posts: 61
I've been firing jacketed bullets, after having fired lead bullets, for close to 40 years and haven't encountered a problem yet. On the contrary, the practice makes it possible to clean the barrel.

Here's a thread discussing the issue.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=302172

Pay attention to 1911Tuner's comments. Tuner is a pistolsmith and is possibly the most knowledgeable person re guns on either the HighRoad or the Firingline.

Again, those of us who fire jacketed after lead have yet to see any adverse effects. If firing jacketed after lead creates pressure spikes, then so will firing lead after lead.
atlantis is offline  
Old November 6, 2010, 02:20 PM   #19
RGPM1A
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2010
Posts: 134
Like others I would routinely shoot some jacketed bullets after I shot lead in autos and revolvers to clean out some of the lead fouling. It works.
RGPM1A is offline  
Old November 6, 2010, 04:06 PM   #20
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,884
Although I have read the same; not to fire jacketed bullets after lead, I find that the jacketed bullets do not iron the lead, but tend to clean it to some extent.
I have not done this with a badly leaded barrel, but normally load a mag with one jacketed round. I find that makes it easier to clean.

Regards,
Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old November 6, 2010, 09:12 PM   #21
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 20,651
Quote:
Again, those of us who fire jacketed after lead have yet to see any adverse effects.
Except for those who have.

Read post #14 on the linked thread from The Highroad for some firsthand experience with guns damaged by the practice.
"Over the years I've seen this a number of times, and often the owner stated that he'd been "shooting the lead out" for years with no problem.
What happens is, the leading is just that tiny bit more than usual, and the barrel is ruined."
Allan Jones isn't exactly inexperienced and he also claims to have seen several guns damaged this way.

Beretta is the oldest gun company in the world and warns against the practice in their manuals. Presumably they have gained a bit of firearms experience in the centuries they've been in business.

As mentioned, if the gun doesn't lead badly it's not likely to be an issue. But that doesn't mean it CAN'T be an issue. The practice can cause damage and we have the experience of experts who tell us that it can.

I agree that Tuner knows a thing or two about guns, but put anyone up against Allan Jones and Beretta combined and I think just about anyone's knowledge and experience is going to come out in second place.

WILL it damage a gun? Not always, not even frequently. CAN it damage a gun? Certainly it can and we have the word of at least one well-respected expert and a warning from the oldest gun company in the world to back that up.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old November 6, 2010, 09:24 PM   #22
JayCee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2001
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantis
I've been firing jacketed bullets, after having fired lead bullets, for close to 40 years and haven't encountered a problem yet. On the contrary, the practice makes it possible to clean the barrel.
I have had exactly the same experience. I guess it's conceivable that a really fouled barrel could act similar to a bore obstruction, but I tend to think that this is one of those issues that some gun writer or gun manufacturer has come up with "in an overabundance of caution".
__________________
“You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas.” – David Crockett

“If I owned Texas and hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell.” - General Phillip H. Sheridan
JayCee is offline  
Old November 6, 2010, 10:13 PM   #23
atlantis
Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2010
Posts: 61
Quote:
agree that Tuner knows a thing or two about guns, but put anyone up against Allan Jones and Beretta combined and I think just about anyone's knowledge and experience is going to come out in second place.
I disagree.
atlantis is offline  
Old November 6, 2010, 10:44 PM   #24
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 20,651
Allan Jones claims to have firsthand knowledge of guns damaged by the practice. It's pretty clear from the qualifications listed below that he knows what he 's talking about so the only other way to dismiss his comments is to claim that he's lying.
  • 20 years with CCI Speer during which he held the positions: Head Ballistician, Technical Specialist, Manager Technical Publications, CCI-Speer Operations, Author and Editor of Speer Reloading Manuals 12-14.
  • 16 years experience as a forensic firearms examiner in the Dallas County (Texas) Crime Lab.
On the thread you linked to there's another person claiming to have firsthand knowlege of guns damaged by the process. A second independent source. He must be lying too.

Beretta warns against it. Guess they don't know what they're talking about.

It's clear that people have done this, some of them for a long time and have gotten away with it. No one is saying that's not possible, on the contrary it's not really surprising. As long as the leading doesn't build up too much it's unlikely to cause a problem. But that's not the point.

The point is that there are experts who, based on firsthand experience, warn against the practice. Not because it WILL cause problems but because it CAN--because it HAS.

I have no problem with people acting contrary to the recommendations and advice of experts. People can do whatever they want. But when people tell others that what they're doing is absolutely safe, that it CAN'T cause a problem that's an entirely different story. Are you going to replace someone's barrel when they bulge it because you told them it couldn't happen? Will you cover the damages that the warranty won't because they disregarded warnings in the manual based on your advice?

TFL is dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership. Suggesting that there's no problem with ignoring the advice of experts or that disregarding the warnings of gun manufacturers can't have negative consequences is not responsible.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old November 6, 2010, 11:01 PM   #25
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
Quote:
....... In some way the copper jacket will cause the lead from the non-jacketed bullet to do damage to the barrel.
Don't know to what degree the lead raises pressure. If it builds up it seems logical that it would.

It may seem logical that one can clean the lead out by following up with copper bullets, but it's just as logical that the copper merely packs the lead down into the pores and makes things worse. While I haven't seen damage first hand, I'm gonna throw in with those who've seen adverse effects.

Doesn't mean I panic after doing a shooting session where I mix copper and lead. I just clean the barrel and make sure the lead is gone.

If you have lead in the bore and you want to see what happens, just shoot some copper jkt's thru there and take a gander and so how much of the lead is "cleaned out".
Nnobby45 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.21980 seconds with 7 queries