The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 31, 2010, 11:54 AM   #26
FoxtrotRomeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2010
Posts: 487
Quote:
Machine guns are normally belt-fed. Rimmed rounds generally won't work well in a double-stack pistol magazine because they stack in a curved shape and don't feed well.
Dragunov SVD rifle then. There is your box mag, same round. And who said the prototype had to have a straight and angled grip anyway. Ok so it likes the curve, curve it, curve the grip. Think outside the box of conventional design.
__________________
"The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly." - Albert Einstein]
FoxtrotRomeo is offline  
Old October 31, 2010, 11:56 AM   #27
8shot357
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2010
Posts: 1,740
What wrong with 5.7X28?
8shot357 is offline  
Old October 31, 2010, 12:42 PM   #28
Mr Lucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2010
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 195
Whats wrong with .22 Magnum (.22WMR)?

Kel-Tec PMR-30.jpg

Kel-Tec PMR-30 (stock photo)
__________________
‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’

— Abraham Lincoln
Mr Lucky is offline  
Old October 31, 2010, 01:11 PM   #29
testuser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2010
Posts: 495
.224 Boz a necked down 10mm auto.
testuser is offline  
Old October 31, 2010, 01:26 PM   #30
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 10,909
Folks, it's not that it can't be done, it's not that it has never been done... the point of the matter is that there is a reason why it's not mainstream, not typical, rare, and doubtful to be released shortly as the next best thing. It's because building a semi-auto specifically around a rimmed cartridge is a bass-ackwards way of trying to solve the problem.

It's pretty much been shown that the end result is what survives after solving the problem of running rimmed cartridges through a box magazine.

Anyone who is going to sit down with a clean slate and specifically design a semi-auto to run with a high capacity box magazine isn't going to base it around a rimmed cartridge design unless he's a masochist or he's been ordered from above to use that specific rimmed round.

But of course, that's just how I see it from this corner. I've never designed a firearm. I'm just enjoying the discussion.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 02:03 AM   #31
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 5,881
not an auto

Other revolver ctgs have been mentioned, so..........

Don't forget the .256 Win mag, Ruger made their single shot single action in it for a brief while, .357 mag (rimmed) necked down, fairly sharply, to .25.
bamaranger is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 02:37 AM   #32
Edmond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2004
Location: Ukraine, Europe
Posts: 120
"The MTE-224V and MTE-224VA pistols are engineered by MARTIN TUMA ENGINEERING, Gmbh, of Switzerland; a joint-venture with CALIBER PRAHA and LUVO of Czech Republic has been estabilshed for the production of such weapons.

The MTE-224V is a self-loading combat pistol engineered to fulfill the role of a Personal Defense Weapon for non-combatant and rear-line military personnel, and as a sidearm for Special Operations Forces. With this purpose, it has been trialed back ago by the US Armed Forces, along with the FN Five-seveN; none of them were ultimately adopted as the new US-SOCOM sidearm, having been the .45-ACP HECKLER&KOCH Mk23-Mod0 pistol the winner.

The cartridge those two pistols fire is the .224-VOB (.5'54x23'5mm-Tuma), basically a .7'62x25mm-Tokarev shell necked-down to accept a .5'56x45mm-NATO bullet. "

I tried one years ago, it was a CZ 75 knock off design, it was more precisely a modified ITM Sphinx of Swiss manufacture.

A handful of Delta Elite had been converted to .224 BOZ caliber in USA.
Edmond is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 02:39 AM   #33
Edmond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2004
Location: Ukraine, Europe
Posts: 120
In Middle East, the adoption of Small Caliber High Velicity PDW like the MP 7 by Saudi Arabia may trigger a local version of a SCHV pistol like the Caracal. Rumours, rumours..
Edmond is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 07:11 AM   #34
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,845
Well...yeah.

Quote:
Question came to my mind. Has anyone ever come-out with a high velocity 22-25 caliber bottle necked semi-auto handgun cartridge?
Well.....yeah. As a little looking around would show, there have been such cartridges for decades.
Even the much discussed 5.7X28 was developed more than 20 years ago.
Ammo is available for that round that will push a 40 grain bullet to nearly 2100 fps from a barrel less than five inches long.

Quote:
Plus the .30 Luger, .30 Mauser, 7.62x25 Tokarev, .25 NAA, .32 NAA, etc, etc
The OP was for .22-.25 caliber cartridges.....except for the .25 NAA, all of those are .30 or bigger.
Pete
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ...
NRA Life Member

Last edited by darkgael; November 2, 2010 at 07:17 AM.
darkgael is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 07:33 AM   #35
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
Well, first off, when automatics first began appearing nearly 120 years ago, it was also just about the time that bottle neck rifle cartridges had become generally acceptable as a Good Thing and the same reasoning was apparently applied to automatic pistols. It quickly became apparent to some folks that maybe just a bigger caliber to begin with was a better idea, and in fact that's how the 9mm Luger (as we call it) came to be.

But to the question in the first posting, the Soviets developed a small pistol and a new cartridge to go with it. It was a purposely designed concealed carry pistol and I think it had a bottleneck cartridge. I didn't bother to look it up but I will in a minute. The pistol looks something like a Walther PPK but it is especially thin, given the apparent design requirements. And they came up with a new cartridge, presumably trying to have something that worked better than any of the existing and quite common small pistol cartridges. I even believe I've read it had exceptional penetrating ability. It is a rare thing in this country and I've never seen one in person.

All the other cartridges were intended for full size handguns, I'd have to say.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 07:40 AM   #36
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
OK, this just in. The pistol is the PSM and the cartridge is the 5.45x18. The writer on the Russian website (world guns.ru) didn't like it and even thought the .25 auto was better, perhaps because it had a bigger bore or something. But the cartridge has a pointed, jacketed bullet and would remind you a little of the approach taken by FN with their 5.7 cartridge, although the intent was altogether different.

Interesting topic.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 11:22 AM   #37
Jbb6811
Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South carolina
Posts: 95
i think the 5.7 is a neat new ammo but the gun out for it is well...:barf:
it is mostly plastic, feels cheap,ugly and toy-ish to me and its almost $1000. i think ill stick with my 357sig and 40 for now.
__________________
Bersa 380(wives ccw), Walther P22,S&W M&P.40(full) & .357sig compact,S&W BG380
Jbb6811 is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 02:00 PM   #38
FoxtrotRomeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2010
Posts: 487
Yeah I don't like the Five Seven pistol either. But if people do, more power to them.

Quote:
Anyone who is going to sit down with a clean slate and specifically design a semi-auto to run with a high capacity box magazine isn't going to base it around a rimmed cartridge design unless he's a masochist or he's been ordered from above to use that specific rimmed round.

But of course, that's just how I see it from this corner. I've never designed a firearm. I'm just enjoying the discussion.
Well my family has been known to attempt things that most people won't try because they think they can't do it. Most people who have known our family just grin. We're just that way. A family consisting of two land surveyors and a nautical engineer I guess it makes sense.

But anyway to the point, I'll design one because I'm bored and just because people have something against the idea. Problem is I lack the shop to build the prototype and safely test it.
__________________
"The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly." - Albert Einstein]
FoxtrotRomeo is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 05:25 PM   #39
Edmond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2004
Location: Ukraine, Europe
Posts: 120
PSM 5.45x 18mm is the one on the right next to the 4.6x 30mm

Edmond is offline  
Old December 30, 2010, 10:33 PM   #40
appleseedgunsmith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2010
Posts: 5
necked .22 pistol

I have a wildcat .22 cartridge I have developed using the .30 mauser cartridge. I have chambered 2 guns for it, one being a t/c encore w/ 20 inch bbl.,and a 1911 based on a para frame. 45 gr bullets will do 2700 fps+ in the rifle & 2000 from the 6 inch pistol. Little did I realize that others had done the same thing, to include 224 vob, 22 reed express, 223 timbs, or 22 micromag. It is definitely harder, and more expensive than you think. I've probably spent $5000 on two guns for parts, tooling, and r&d.
appleseedgunsmith is offline  
Old December 30, 2010, 11:47 PM   #41
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 16,913
There is small bore and then there is small bore pistol

I met a fellow who thinks its a really cool thing to neck down .25acp brass to .14 caliber. I saw his Contender, and he told me he had successfully converted a couple of autos, but I never got a chance to see them.

That's one approach. We got the 5.7mm as a commercial option today, and there are others mentioned but not apparently common in the US...yet. That military/paramilitary approach is another way.

Yet another approach was experimented with nearly 40 years ago. One of the people experimenting with the AutoMag (Lomont) necked the .44 AMP case down as far as .22 cal. Also had a .25, and a .30 on that case. I'd have to go dig up an old book to find the numbers, but velocities were impressive for a handgun, particularly in the early 1970s! Imagaine what you get from a 10" barrel, with a case capacity about that of a .44 magnum case, and working at a full 50,000psi? Something pretty close to what our GIs are getting from those short barreled M4 carbines, I expect.

But it was in a huge pistol. And there were issues with functioning with the smallest bores, as I recall, because the gun was recoil operated.

I think something like that would have a good place in a gas operated auto pistol, such as the Wildey or the Desert Eagle, but there are mechanical and ergonomic issues that balance against that also. However, a well designed gun, capable of being easily scoped, and capable of rifle level accuracy (and it can be done) might have a niche market. And if it was cool looking, and Hollywood "discovered" it, you just might have a money maker! One good action flic with the hero destroying the whole world with one and you'll sell thousands!

Of course, that's another approach....
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 31, 2010, 08:01 PM   #42
appleseedgunsmith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2010
Posts: 5
I didn't do it with illusions of grandeur. I thought the 224 boz sounded cool, and tried to find a way around reamer makers not making the boz reamer. I learned an awful lot during this project, such as the elastic limit of cart brass is around 70k psi, and titanium is not flame cut resistant. My current loads have been tamed to 50k psi, but I still have feed issues. A 7 lb recoil spring and reduced power (17lb) mainspring is needed for function. Primers will smear lightly still, tho rem 7.5 does it the least. Cci military (41?) Show no smears but require double hits. Heavier mainspring fixing that causes too much resistance for the slide to overcome and reliability suffers. I even hogged off the top half of the slide ala beretta m9 to reduce mass. might try fluting the barrel too.

Last edited by appleseedgunsmith; December 31, 2010 at 08:11 PM.
appleseedgunsmith is offline  
Old January 4, 2011, 03:49 PM   #43
ripnbst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 1,539
To all the people in this thread knocking the FN Five-Seven have you actually ever shot one?

This cartridge is everything that the OP was asking about and is used by counter-terrorism units the world over.

Low Recoil, High Capacity handguns are great for those who don't shoot often, beginners, or are weak.

Dont knock it til you try it.
ripnbst is offline  
Old January 5, 2011, 01:05 PM   #44
hagar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2000
Location: Colombia, SC
Posts: 577
Biggest problem is noise and muzzle flash. I had a 6 inch 22 magnum AMT Automag, and it was as loud as a 357 magnum. The AMT 30 carbine was even louder.
__________________
I don't have time for busy people
hagar is offline  
Old January 5, 2011, 08:36 PM   #45
DiCarnage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2010
Location: Southern Oregon.
Posts: 105
Hmm...

New, tiny yet powerful rounds:
.224 BOZ
HK 4.6x30
FN 5.7x28
6.5x25 CBJ
Each cartridge is roughly the size of a 9mm round with a notably smaller projectile, and much greater energy transfer.

I thought I was the only one that thought that way along the lines of the .30 carbine until someone showed me something from the 60's called a Johnson Spitfire. A .30 carbine necked down to .22 and apparently it shot pretty well. I don't have the specs, but I've been dreaming of building something similar for about two years now.
Personally, I think the .30 carbine is just a tad long for a handgun round and I'd shorten the cases by just a few mm's, but I think it could yield exceptional performance.
DiCarnage is offline  
Old January 5, 2011, 09:27 PM   #46
kozak6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,770
Seems like most of those rounds are intended for armor penetration.

That probably shouldn't be a civilian concern, but it doesn't really matter as you can't really get the good stuff anyways.
kozak6 is offline  
Old January 6, 2011, 04:32 PM   #47
appleseedgunsmith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2010
Posts: 5
Pull the ss109 bullets from 5.56 nato to get good stuff
appleseedgunsmith is offline  
Old January 6, 2011, 05:14 PM   #48
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,167
Quote:
It's because building a semi-auto specifically around a rimmed cartridge is a bass-ackwards way of trying to solve the problem.

It's pretty much been shown that the end result is what survives after solving the problem of running rimmed cartridges through a box magazine.
Not really, there have been plenty of very successful firearms that feed rimmed cartridges out of box magazines. In handguns, we have the S&W M52 in .38 Special and the Hammerli P240 in .32 S&W Long as well as the Desert Eagle, Coonan, and various .22's that have already been mentioned.

Also, we see all sorts of different rifles and machineguns with different types of magazines that have chambered rimmed rounds. You've got the SVT-38 and SVT-40 Tokarev, SVD Dragunov, Romanian PSL, DP-28 and the various models of Mosin-Nagant all in 7.62x54R. You've got the SMLE, P14, Lewis, and Bren all in .303 British. There's the Krag-Jorgansen in .30-40 Krag and the Winchester M1895 in .30-40 Krag and 7.62x54R. Finnally, you've got the Berthier in 8x50R Lebel.

The main concern with feeding rimmed rounds from a magazine is to load the magazines carefully in order to avoid rimlock (though this is not a concern with the pan-type magazines of the Lewis and DP-28 nor with the Mosin-Nagant due to its interupptor). Rimlock is, however, just as big if not bigger concern with common semi-rimmed cartridges like .38 Super and .32 Auto.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old January 6, 2011, 05:16 PM   #49
appleseedgunsmith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2010
Posts: 5
My toy, the .22-30 SBS
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20101024_123658-1.jpg (16.5 KB, 34 views)
appleseedgunsmith is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.17172 seconds with 8 queries