The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 17, 2010, 12:38 PM   #51
Junior member
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
Oh, then I would agree with Peet that retreat would be the better option in his single very narrowly defined scenario.

But in my world things have NEVER been so narrowly defined or clear cut so I speak from a more realistic (to me) expectation of circumstances in a broader sense than you speak.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old July 17, 2010, 12:42 PM   #52
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Western Colorado, finally.
Posts: 19,118
Quote: my world things have NEVER been so narrowly defined or clear cut so I speak from a more realistic (to me) expectation of circumstances in a broader sense than you speak.

I fully agree that in the real world it is somewhat unlikely that you will have, one, the option to retreat, two, clear and concise knowledge of that option, and three, the mental wherewithal during what is admittedly a lethal force situation, to make the instant decision to take that option.

No doubt.

However, I also think that part of your awareness of your surroundings is to try to be aware of ways of escape should a situation arise. I also think that part of your home defense plan should include ways of keeping your family safe and waiting for police.
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 17, 2010 at 12:48 PM. Reason: more
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 17, 2010, 12:44 PM   #53
Blue Steel
Senior Member
Join Date: May 10, 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 183
I think the armed citizen should make every effort to avoid trouble, but when trouble comes to you I don't feel that there is any moral obligation to run away.

What I think people fail to consider is that the criminal assault is not only an assault on your property. The mugger doesn't simply take your wallet. The burglar doesn't quiet away in the night with only your DVD player while you cower in the corner. These are assaults on your liberty, and have a detrimental effect on your sense of safety.

"The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?" ~William J. Bennett

Link: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs. By LtCol Dave Grossman
"I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers
Blue Steel is offline  
Old July 17, 2010, 12:47 PM   #54
Junior member
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Location: Outside the continental U
Posts: 752
I believe that if you can retreat with complete safety to yourself and others (when and how this happens you can decide in your own mind) then you are morally obligated to do so.

Shooting someone is a last resort.

LAST resort.

Last means that it is final, there are no other options after it. That means that if retreat is an option then it comes BEFORE shooting.

Besides the moral implications, there are legal, financial, social and mental reasons to do everything possible to avoid shooting someone.
Pete. To me the decision is not based on moral grounds but on a practical one. If I have a viable and safe option for me and my family I will take it but not because I care for the agresor/intruder. I couldn't care less. The safety of my family comes first. No shootout is safer than a shootout. No confrontation is safer than a confrontation. Even if you rightfully kill someone in self defense the consecuences are horrible emotionally and economically.
Maromero is offline  
Old July 17, 2010, 12:49 PM   #55
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,118
Originally Posted by Blue Steel
"The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?"

~William J. Bennett
In no particular order...

What is worth defending?
- My family
- My country
- My rights
- My faith
- My life

What is worth dying for?
- My family
- My country
- My rights
- My faith

What is worth living for?
- My family
- My country
- My rights
- My faith

Take notice that my "stuff" is nowhere on that list. For good reason; no matter what the circumstance, objects of possession are not worth a human life. Period. And no, I don't give a damn what Texas law says; to me it's an issue of morality, not legality.
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.
jgcoastie is offline  
Old July 17, 2010, 12:52 PM   #56
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,834
There is a time to stand and fight, even at the loss of my life, and there is a time to get out of the way. For me it is a tactical decision and not a moral one. I have no need to thump my chest or growl. I have a need to protect my family and survive. The goblin's safety and welfare simply do not enter into my thought process. When that person, or persons, decided to become a threat to my life and limb, or my family's life and limb, they have given up any right to safety and well being. I don't care about them. I will stop them however I can with whatever I have at the time.

I'll deal with the consequences later. I have a good lawyer in J. Noble Dagget.
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old July 17, 2010, 12:54 PM   #57
Mike Irwin
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 39,175
You know, I'm getting a little more than ticked at people throwing around accusations of trollism simply because someone asks a question that someone else doesn't like.

It seems to be a growing tendency here at TFL.

If you think someone is trolling the board, you REPORT that individual and the moderators will make the determination, based on the content of the thread.

But if you start slinging accusations of trollism around in your messages, you're putting your own posting privileges at TFL in danger.

Do I make myself clear?
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old July 17, 2010, 12:57 PM   #58
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 20,903
The question as it is posed is hopelessly general.

We've got several parallel discussions going as a result. Some discussing the situation where retreat is completely safe, some discussing retreat when it endangers the defender, some discussing retreat in one's own home, some discussing retreat on an international scale, retreat from attackers, retreat from evil in principle, retreat from dictators and their morally bankrupt policies, etc., etc.

AND, we've even got one minor attempt to spin up a sub-discussion on whether deadly force should be used to kill or to stop.

I'm gonna lock this one.

But before I do there I feel obligated to point out a seriously flawed interpretation of TX law found on this thread:
After reading that excerpt, it seems pretty clear that if I see somebody stealing my hubcaps off of my car, it, I can shoot him in the back with my 12 gauge, and take them back.

First of all, based just on the excerpt, you will be committing murder unless the theft occurs during the nighttime. Taking hubcaps is simple theft.

Second, the excerpt clearly points out that deadly force can only be used if the owner "reasonably believes" there's no other option that won't expose the owner to "a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury".

Third, that excerpt is not a quote from the actual TX statutes. There's more to it than that. The TX statutes are online if anyone wants to verify exactly what they say.
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:04 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2017 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.06107 seconds with 7 queries