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Old June 22, 2010, 06:00 PM   #1
Ryanfromcanada
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30-30 vs 7.62x39

Do we really think that these two cartridges are the same. I will give you my take. I don't own guns in both calibers and they certanly don't feel the same when shot. Further more most of the data i've seen states [email protected] in the x39. Thats about the velocity you get with a 150 grain bullet from a 30-30.

Whats your take?
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Old June 22, 2010, 06:15 PM   #2
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On paper they are actually very similar. The important thing to keep in mind is that the 7.62x39 retains its energy better down range. At about 100 yards and beyond they are pretty much identical.

If you keep in mind that the 30-30 out of the actual rifles that are most commonly use generate about 100 fps velocity. The 170 gr load actually does about 2100 fps. The 150 gr load does about 2250-2300 fps. On paper they are actually quite similar. That is where the similarities end though.

It really depends on what the use is. I do think the 30-30 is far superior for hunting. I think its much more versatile. I wouldn't even dare trying to take an Elk with 7.62x39. I think its even light for medium-large size deer. The typical 123 gr soft points are only suitable for fairly small deer. This is the classic case of on paper ballistics meaning diddly squat. The 30-30 is simply a superior hunting round. It can use heavier bullets and the bullets perform very well at the intended range of the cartridge. A 170 gr 30-30 projectile will do quite a number on a large animal. I think the 7.62x39 doesn't generate enough velocity to get good performance from spitzer bullets beyond 100 yards.
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Old June 22, 2010, 06:16 PM   #3
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Can we ban Caliber wars?
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Old June 22, 2010, 06:28 PM   #4
Ryanfromcanada
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"Can we ban Caliber wars" Why this isn't intended to be fan boys bashing at eachother. I was just expecting a civil adult conversation about a common topic that i have a opinion on. If this level of maturity is too much for you i suggest you refrain from posting
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Old June 22, 2010, 07:27 PM   #5
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I've killed deer with both and seen a number of others killed with them; mostly with 123 grain softpoints or hollowpoints in the 7.62x39, and both 150 and 170 grain softpoints in the 30-30. There is no question in my mind about it; the 30-30 hits them harder and sets them down quicker.

If I was going to hunt deer again with the 7.62x39, I'd give the Wolf 154 grain softpoint a try.
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Old June 22, 2010, 08:14 PM   #6
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They're both what I call utility cartridges, typically chambered in utility carbines. From a ballistics perspective, the .30-30 has it all over the 7.62x39, but...for the typical use each is put to, there is little reason to get all het up for one over another.
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Old June 22, 2010, 09:45 PM   #7
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The 30-30 is more versatile, being able to handle a wider range of bullet weights, the 7.62x39 tops out at about 150 grains and even then can't push them very fast vs the 30-30. The 30-30 also is much more accepting of cast bullets.

The 7.62x39 is a more compact rimless case that is more readily chambered in auto-loaders.

The 7.62x39 can use spitzer bullets while the 30-30 uses RN bullets, which limits the trajectory of the 30-30. (Unless you're one of those losers like me who loads Spitzers into his Savage 340.)

Both occupy the same region of the power scale on paper.
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Old June 22, 2010, 10:40 PM   #8
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Crosshair- I do!!!
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Old June 22, 2010, 10:42 PM   #9
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At the risk of bringing some actual terminal data into the conversation....

7.62x39:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/7.62x39m...t%20Point.html

.30-30:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/160grHornady3030.html

Just stirring the pot....

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Old June 22, 2010, 11:16 PM   #10
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Different cartridges with different purposes in mind when designed. The 30-30 is a purpose designed hunting cartridge and within its limits it has done quite well at putting meat on the table for many decades. The 7.62x39 was designed as a military round specifically to do serious damage to opposing troops, which it has done and continues to do for quite some time. It was never intended to be a hunting round. I'm sure you can take game with it, but that wasn't what it was designed to do.
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Old June 23, 2010, 07:34 AM   #11
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Both cartridges are designed for a specific type of gun, which limits their usefulness. The 30-30 has a rimmed case, and as such is only used in lever guns. This means flat nose bullets and poor distance performance. The 7.62x39 is designed for (semi) automatic weapons, and as such you can't fiddle much with ballistics without losing the function.
The Russian cartridge also uses a 310 bullet what limits reloading options in the US, so you can probably build a wider variety of hunting loads with the 30-30. But that doesn't change the fact that their are better options available in the 308 caliber group if you're not shooting a lever.
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Old June 23, 2010, 09:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Can we ban Caliber wars?
Then what should we talk about. If we all agreed on one caliber, one gun, etc, and banded all debates, there would be no reason for this and other gun forums.

It would truely be a boring world.

As long as its civil, and we dont bash individuals, I see nothing wrong with Cailber or gun wars.

But thats just me. I cant shoot 24/7 so I like to debate or talk about shooting, guns and calibers.
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Old June 23, 2010, 09:34 AM   #13
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A friend of mine once told me that the .30-30 used to be the benchrest shooting community's baby, much like the 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges are now. They'd chamber it in various bolt guns and let loose with .308 match bullets loaded in the case and shoot little bughole groups with it back in the 50's and 60's.

I dunno if it's true or not... it predates me by 20-30 years.

Never heard of anyone entering into a benchrest match with an x39 cartridge, though.

I can see how the 30-30 would make a decent cartridge for that endeavor: It has a long neck, so seating heavy bullets doesn't interfere with internal case capacity. The x39 has a short neck, and stubbing the bullet base of a heavy bullet deep into the powder charge seems to me that it would radically screw up pressure patterns in the chamber when the bullet is trying to get started down the bore.

If you want to shoot big game, or engage in marksmanship endeavors, the .30-30 seems like a better choice.

If you want a semiautomatic (or automatic) rifle with "sufficient" accuracy to conventional distances, the x39 is your dance partner... unless you want to hunt anything bigger than a deer.
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Old June 23, 2010, 10:06 AM   #14
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Actually the 7.62x39 has been the parent cartridge for some exceptionally accurate BR cartridges. It is a very efficient powder engine within its range of usable bullet weights.
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Old June 23, 2010, 01:41 PM   #15
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Can we ban people from whining about everything?

Seems like most threads anymore have more people whining in them about irrellevant stuff that has nothing to do with the thread.

Spelling
Grammar
Legal issues
Laws

We need to stick with the thread issues
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Old June 23, 2010, 02:28 PM   #16
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To my view the two cartridges bear little in common with each other:

- popular 30-30 ammo features the 170 grain soft tip bullet

- popular 7.62 X 39 ammo features the 123 grain bullet

30-30 has been safely loaded with 125 grain bullet by Sierra to achieve velocities that exceed any figure the little Russian can produce. 30-30 has been safely loaded with 190 grain bullet "pulled" from 303 savage cases to produce deeper penetration than any bullet fired from the little Russian. In summary, the larger 30-30 case capacity allows the use of wide diversity of bullet weights.

The two cartridges are not similar except that a deer wouldn't know the difference. This statement assumes the shot is placed into the same spot from same angle at typical forest distances. After all, once the bullet smashes through the chest wall, torn lung tissue is torn lung tissue. As an example, I witnessed a TV segment of Ted Nugent's show in which his wife killed a large bodied oryx with one arrow from her 45 lb bow. The animal would not have been any deader if shot with a 175 lb crossbow or 357 MAG revolver!

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Old June 23, 2010, 02:33 PM   #17
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Personally, I've always considered the comparision just as a matter of convenience. The actual performance of the two can be similiar, but not identical. To me,The same can be said about numerous similiar rounds.... .308 Winc, 30/06...( i.e. .308 is almost the 30/06..)
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Old June 24, 2010, 12:38 AM   #18
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on the right track

The comments regards "types" of rifles are on the right track. The .30-30 is typically and traditionally a lever ctg. Oh yeah, there are a few Sav 340 about, and maybe a custom Ruger No1, some HR single bbls, but usually, we're talking Winlin carbine.

Some Winlins are not easily scoped. Some have the traditional half cock safety, which I believe is not fully understood by all shooters. The lever carbine is not thought of as an accuracy "platform" though some will surprise you. So-so triggers on most. All this works against the .30-30.

Plus factors: Handy. Flat, light, and ammo still pretty common. The .30-30 wins hands down in versatility of ammo, heavier slugs, even factory Nosler's! Lots of big critters have been taken efficiently w/ a Winlin .30-30.

The x39 is a semi and bolt ctg. Take the x39 out of its typical bullet hose and into a quality bolt like the ruger 77-II or a CZ, and one has a useful, light rifle for typical 150 lb whitetails. Easily scoped, good triggers, simple box mag, time proven safety and manual of arms.

We could use a quality x39 hunting load, lighter than the 150 stuff, heavier than the 125. Oh but for the return of the Sierra 135 slug, or a factory load that used same.
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Old June 24, 2010, 07:36 AM   #19
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Ive killed deer and hogs with the 130 grain factory federal load and its done real well.
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Old June 24, 2010, 09:20 AM   #20
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I dont remember who made the rifle, but years ago, I met a guy who had some sort of Herter's Bolt Action rilfe in 30-30 Winchester. Let me tell you, that puppy could shoot.

I've also seen single shot rifles in 30-30 that were plenty accurate. There is nothing wrong with the 30-30.

I betcha that if you was to take care in loading, and stuff some 168 SMKs in a 30-30 it would compete with the best rounds out there in the accuracy department.
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Old June 24, 2010, 10:41 AM   #21
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SKS's and mini-30's have taken a lot of deer over the years. If you want to compensate for the lighter x39 bullets, Corbon makes a real dandy 150gr sp @2300 fps.
That'll put a whoopin on a deer just as well as a 30-30, but with a better BC since it's not a flatnose.
Damn expensive though. Practice with the cheap stuff, and then break out a box of that and sight in before deer season and you'll have 30-30 power in your favorite inexpensive, low recoiling, semi-auto.
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Old June 24, 2010, 11:02 AM   #22
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Quote:
A friend of mine once told me that the .30-30 used to be the benchrest shooting community's baby, much like the 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges are now. They'd chamber it in various bolt guns and let loose with .308 match bullets loaded in the case and shoot little bughole groups with it back in the 50's and 60's.
While a few guys did chamber bolt action rifles for the .30 WCF, it was never a popular BR "baby". In the 50s and 60s the .22 caliber cartridges ruled the BR roost with the .22-250 a darling for awhile. The .219 Donaldson Wasp was very popular, and it was formed from the .30 WCF case.

While the .30WCF could certainly shoot very well in a 'built' rifle at short ranges, it will never compete with the .308 at longer ranges due to low velocity. Too, its case shape is antiquated and not optimum for extreme accuracy. The .30 BR with similar ballistics would easily outshoot it in a BR match.


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Old June 25, 2010, 11:09 PM   #23
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Years back I put together an Arisaka to shoot 7.62x39. I still have it and still use it. I chopped it and it uses Mini-.30 magazines. The barrel is .312 but I shoot 150 grain .308 Core Lokts through it. It is really accurate that way, and I can not get 150 grain .312 bullets to shoot as well. I have shot deer at 90-100 yards between the eyes and feel totally comfortable taking a shot like that. I hit one trotting up a slope and hit the shoulder instead of behind it and it dropped like a bag of cement. I am up on the max load in the Hodgdon Manuel, but that is what it likes. The 30-30 is O.K., but the 7.62x39 is no slouch in a good rifle. As far as souping up the 30-30, I have a 7-30 waters, and shooting 140 grain F/points it is most unimpressive on deer.
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Old June 26, 2010, 01:38 AM   #24
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7.62x39
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Old June 26, 2010, 06:55 PM   #25
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It seems the 30-30 has it for hunting but what about self defense? I'm just guessing but I would think an 170gr soft or hollowpoint would be pretty deadly.
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