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Old April 25, 2010, 01:28 AM   #26
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"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

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Old April 25, 2010, 02:17 AM   #27
T. O'Heir
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None. Too much penetration. You are responsible for where any bullet ends up.
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Old April 25, 2010, 06:43 AM   #28
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Makes good sense to me, those old lever and coach guns have proved themselves over and over again in the past 150 years. I get a little annoyed when people insist that you "need" a tricked out Ar15 or something to defend yourself.

I wouldn't go with a 30-30 unless I was out in the sticks. Too much over penetration. The 357 mag is a good choice but personally I'd go with 45 Colt.
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Old April 25, 2010, 07:12 AM   #29
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I would hate to pull away from the OPs questions but I have to ask it, feel free to have me change this later...

If you are simply protecting yourself would your methods be any less?

Seriously, if you only have yourself to worry about and no one else in your life would you be so apt to pull out the heavy artillery or would you just take the old baseball bat? I should have posted this elsewhere I am sure....

Just thinking as the last post reminded "Anything you say (Or do) can and will be used against you".
You'd have to be out of your mind to go up against an attacker with a ball bat when you have access to a firearm.

A rifle is not heavily artillery... heavy artillery is heavy artillery. Hand guns and rifles are relatively weak personal weapons.
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Basing conclusions on emotions is like wiping before you poop, it doesn't make any damn sense.
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Old April 25, 2010, 07:20 AM   #30
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I really like the Browning BPS Upland in 20ga for the house. Something I can hunt with and shoot skeet/clays yet it's still short, handy, and holds 5 rounds when I get home with it.

It's a hunting gun. Not a tricked out "doom gun" and about as PC as it can be. Works for me at least. Plus, I really like it
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Old April 25, 2010, 08:05 AM   #31
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What this boils down to is use what you have on hand for personal defence. With regard to the lever guns in .357 vs .45 colt, i feel that the .357 may have the edge with regards to utility and usability. Unlike the .45 colt it isnt limited to certain pressures due to revolver strength. Unless your shooting a Freedom arms, or Ruger redhack/blackhawk/OLD VAQ you will be limited to standard pressure rounds. Which develop around 850-950fps out of a pistol, would only reach around 1200-1300fps out of a carbine lever gun. Where as a .357 can and will start out at 1200-1400fps from the pistol and can reach anywere from 1700-1800fps+ from the carbine. Which if your using a hardcast solid bullet, will give you a bit of lee way in range, at 300yards your hardcast 158grn bullet will still have the velocity and energy of a starndard pressure .38special.

I love shooting both the .45colt and .357/.38 but the .357 just has more going for it. Now if i had a ruger or freedom arms...then the story changes dramaticly.
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Old April 25, 2010, 08:08 AM   #32
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You are responsible for where any bullet ends up.
Based on my reading of state laws on the subject, in a legitimate SD situation, you are LEGALLY responsible for injuries to bystanders only if you fire recklessly. For example, if you are attacked and just start shooting wildly, you'll be legally responsible for anyone you injure. However, if you fire at your attacker and the bullet overpenetrates the BG, you are not legally responsible.

In fact, if I recall correctly, the BG is the "but for" cause of the injury, in that "but for the BG's attack on you, you would not have fired." I don't know how many states this applies to, but that's what I recall to be the law.

If you are taking about MORAL responsibility, that's its own topic.

Like I wrote before, "Anything you say [or do] can and will be used against you." Your ammo/platform choices are factors to be used against you. Whether they will be decisive factors depends on how obvious it is that you were legitimately defending yourself or others. The more room for doubt on that point, the more likely your choices will go against you.

Go prowling around outside your home in the dark in search of a BG, the more you could end up looking like a vigilante. Barricade yourself and your loved ones in a bedroom and call the police, the more you look like you were forced into a desperate last stand, and the less likely your choices will be used against you. And probably the less likely you'll accidentally injure any innocent parties.
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Old April 25, 2010, 09:00 AM   #33
Glenn Dee
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Living in an apartment in a sub-urban setting was my first consideration when designating a home defense gun(s). Overpenitration is my major consideration. I dont want any legal consiquences, but I truely dont want to harm anyone not involved.

That being said... and me being an old timer... I chose a .38 revolver, loaded with one snake shot round, two frangible rounds, and three JHP's. I also have a stevens 311 double, loaded with #4 shot, four #00, and two Slugs in the saddle.

Some mention has been made about not having a dedicated home defense gun. Thats a personal choice. I choose to dedicate two firearms to that duty full time. Other than cleaning, and practice every three months... they stand duty in the same spot every day (and night).

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Old April 25, 2010, 10:47 AM   #34
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I'd worry more about surviving the encounter with evil and making darn sure non of my family gets hurt before I worry about what the courts will think. Sure a lever rifle will do just fine in most HD situations, but I'f im going with a pistol caliber I'm gonna be using a pistol so I don't lose the advantage of being able to round corners easily with the small frame.

Think of it like this: you're preparing for the chance of a hostile home invasion... something that is so unlikely it will probably never occur to you. So if you are preparing for this unlikely event, why not boost the chances a little more and prepare for the possibility of several armed men invading your house... in which case I would want the sem auto black rifle.
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Old April 25, 2010, 03:11 PM   #35
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If a non-threatening looking gun is what you want, you really don't have to be at a huge disadvantage. A Ruger Mini 14 is available with a wood stock and isn't very threatening looking. Likewise, if you prefer a pistol-caliber carbine, the Ruger Deerfield Carbine, Marlin Camp Carbine, or M1 Carbine would all be good options. In a shotgun, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a plain wood-stocked pump shotgun with an 18-20" barrel. My personal HD shotgun is a plain Remington 870 Express with wood furniture and a 20" smoothbore slug barrel. Even in a handgun, a nice old DA revolver like a S&W Model 10 or Colt Official Police is perfectly adequate and doesn't look nearly as scary as many of the modern semi-autos do.
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Old April 25, 2010, 07:32 PM   #36
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I live out in the country, not real open land but it is out away from any city. I have three house guns, my wife likes the Pardner pump 12ga. We have both a Model 94 30-30 and a M1 Carbine 30 cal. at the ready. I got the Lever gun because I liked it. Great for coyotes, stray dogs or any other vermin, two or four legged. The M1 is a great house gun and I would trust it well in the hands of my 16 yr. old son.
The fact is, get a gun that suits your need and shoot it until it is second nature to you.
As they say "Beware of the man with just one gun, because he knows how to use it!"
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."
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Old April 25, 2010, 08:27 PM   #37
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I completely agree that a levergun makes a fine HD longarm. I believe Jeff Cooper called a pistol caliber levergun a "Long Island Assault Rifle."

It has the key characteristics of an assault rifle--good firepower (both capacity and rate of fire) and intermidiate cartridge powder, it is "politically correct."

Plus they're just fun to shoot and you'll enjoy having one anyway.
I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).
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Old April 25, 2010, 08:35 PM   #38
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Although I personally use either M4 or AKS74U, in your case a lever action in 44 magnum is my suggestion.
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Old May 13, 2010, 05:51 PM   #39
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When someone becomes a threat to my family I want to use the best weapon available to protect them. Should it come to a rifle it would be a Double Star M4 with an eotech loaded with 30 rounds of soft point .223. I would much rather do prison time than see my children killed because I chose an inferior caliber or weapons platform.
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Old May 13, 2010, 07:36 PM   #40
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I hardly consider the lever gun to be inferior. For me and my arms and body it feels really nice to shoulder one and shoot one. Sure the m4 feels ok, but i just dont like the militiristic look of it. IM defending my home not patrolling the poppy fields of Iragistan.
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Old May 14, 2010, 12:31 AM   #41
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Mordis, There is nothing at all wrong with a lever action rifle. My last homeland security rifle was a Marlin 1895 .44 magnum with a Tasco red dot scope. I could lay down some serious shooting with it. The best close range rifle I now own is an M4 yes its a military looking EBR but it functions great and I would bet my life on it should it be called into that duty. By the way Winchester 94's were issued to military guards during ww2 here in the states soooo your lever rifle by the same standard as my M4 would be a military weapon.
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Old May 14, 2010, 07:51 PM   #42
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Ahh i must have mis read your post Afsg. I didnt mean to get hard broiled. There is just something natural about the lever gun in my hands. I can aim cylce and fire and repeat very quickly and it just feels right. Sure i can pick up carry handle m4s here for about $700, but i just dont think i could use it for S/D. Sure its better in every way to the lever gun, but i still wanna survive the aftermath.

Of course i could be thinking about this way to much. Either way, ill still be getting lead down range and on target. Which is all that matters.
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