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Old December 20, 2009, 10:56 AM   #26
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I think Capt Charlie has pretty much hit it, natural subconscious reactions are just that, natural and as he stated. I feel that common sense thought is slower than a split second reaction unless you constantly train for such an event. I also feel some people are much better at split second decisions but everyone is prone to a bad decision, that's why they are called accidents and most are the result of poor decisions many split second.

I had to respond to a training accident many years ago involving a training officer showing another officer how to disarm a suspect. The used a revolver ( the weapon in the day ) and the trainer emptied the gun and counted six rounds. Then as the officer and the trainer went through the motions the gun discharged shooting the trainee in the foot. There were only FIVE bullets on the table, but in haste and not double verifying the count the gun had one remaining round and wouldn't you know it was the next in line to fire!

Maybe there were hard wood floors in this case and the initial thought was a dented floor not an accidental discharge, who knows what the thought process was at that initial moment, sad to say the least. Shooting anyone accidentally, especially a sibling or parent.
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Old December 20, 2009, 12:02 PM   #27
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A tragic reminder of what everyone has reiterated: let them fall.

CBP, to include the Border Patrol, fields H&K USP compact and P2000 pistols configured with HK's LEM trigger module. (The P2000 is the current issue, with USPc pistols still in service.)

From elsewhere re LEMs:

LEMs, unlike traditional DAOs, do not have one trigger pull I'll take a shot at explaining:

There are two hammer positions, and two trigger positions, and three possible trigger pulls.

The LEM hammer is a two-piece unit with an internal cocking piece separate from the external hammer.

Insert magazine and chamber a round. The hammer is in the rebound position (slightly extended from the frame) with the trigger all the way forward. From here the shooter encounters a two-trigger pull: a light stage of appromimately 3-3.5 pounds followed by a heavier one of either 4.5-5.5 pounds or 7.5-8.5 pounds depending on the variant. (Both distances are approximately a half and inch with the first one slightly longer.)

A shot is fired, which cycles the slide. As the trigger is allowed forward it resets at approximately half way forward; there will be an audible click. If the shooter decides to pull the trigger at this stage a half length, consistent trigger pull of either 4.5-5.5 pounds or 7.5-8.5 pounds depending on cvariant is met.

If the shooter returns the trigger all the way forward the full length, two-stage trigger pull is encountered. (See above.)

If the shooter drops the hammer on a round and it fails to fire, the hammer will remain all the way forward. The "second strike" trigger pull is a full length, consistent trigger pull of approximately 12 pounds.

Practically speaking, the shooter has to decide whether to work the reset or not. Beginners usually opt not to, experienced shooters usually opt to do so. That allows room to "grow" into the gun, by the way, and I've seen people do so nicely. The explanation of the LEM makes it sound much more complicated that it is for the end user.

(Quoted weights are to spec. Some report slight variances.)


Regardless, though some will no doubt shift blame to the trigger groups, the lesson isn't swap rigger groups but let them drop.
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Old December 20, 2009, 05:11 PM   #28
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A friend was coming in from hunting last year, swore his shotgun was unloaded and had it slung over his shoulder and his hands were full. It started to slip off his shoulder, he grabbed at the end of the barrel beside his head and blew two of his finger into little pieces all over his kitchen. Something on his person bumped the trigger when he grabbed at the barrel.
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Old December 21, 2009, 02:41 AM   #29
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I will openly criticize my agency's firearm safety and handling instruction as well as policy. It stinks. They took something so simple, that it could work for nearly all not so bright servicemen (I was one of those so no hard feelings) and had to make it so complicated and dangerous.

The incident doesn't seem to be about the instruction however. Since we are a red headed stepchild federal agency, we have many very young guys (I'm not old) who are just giddy as a pig in mud to be able to have a take home, carry anywhere firearm, they just have to play with it, and show it all the time. This, mixed with a flawed, and inadequate firearms handling instruction from the academy causes NDs left and right nationwide with USBP.

Don't get me wrong, shooting instruction is some of the best out of many respected LE academies, and it seems the recruits who have not had any training, or personal firearms usage before shoot very well and continue to improve, but as I reiterate again, the basics of safety and handling is horrid.

Before I don't stop...the final point with this particular incident is to let it drop, but like it has been stated, that goes against natural intincts to grab/catch.

Terrible tragedy.
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