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Old January 5, 2010, 01:20 PM   #26
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Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
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So wait, SKS's suck? Even Norinco's? That's news to me, I love mine.
They're reliable, I'll give them that. I'd call them a poor man's Garand, but assembled with Combloc attention to detail that makes them much less accurate and consistent than the Garand.

I've had an experienced High Power shooter come out to an Appleseed and run an SKS. He never broke a Rifleman score with it. Came close... but couldn't quite do it. He still used the rifle as a learning tool and I have no doubt that he improved from the course and will be able to apply the skills to his M1 and see marked improvement. It's just what he had ammo for.

There ARE folks who have shot Rifleman with an SKS, but just barely. Those guys, when shifting to an AR, M1 Garand, M14, or reasonably tuned .22 (10/22 or 795 that has a sling and quality sights), will add another 20 points to the total AQT score.

I even remember one of the instructors in Appleseed, back east, decided to push an SKS to its limits and did some 700 yard shooting with it. The bullets were tumbling at that point and hitting the paper sideways. But, he was able to hit to that point.

I don't follow SKS variants since I've personally chosen American rifles to fill my safe (aside from a Mosin 91/30), so I don't know how Norks compare to Yugos or other models.

Bottom line is, run what ya brung and have ammo for. You'll still learn the skills, if you show up with an SKS that's been dragged behind a gulag tractor, or a matched-out AR.
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Old September 20, 2010, 05:06 PM   #27
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appleseed gun?

Marlin 795
I just found out that the Marlin 795, is a preferred gun by some Appleseed instructors over the Ruger 10-22. Either gun is great, lots more options and accessories for the Ruger.
My son, Isaac, said that the Ruger is the "AR" of 22s -lots of options, more expensive, and the Marlin is the "SKS", cheaper with maybe, fewer options.
The difference? Ruger is 220 to 250, and it needs some work to make it really usable for Appleseed. The Marlin is 149 bucks at Bass Pro, we hear, sometimes on sale for $99.
I do not know yet about modifications, needed.
My oldest son custom designed a Sling which works both ways; hasty or loop with a buckle QD to take the loop sling off the arm quickly between shooting times.
Ian qualified twice Saturday, shooting a 225, and a 221, out of 250 possible, and so began as an instructor on Sunday; very cool.

For BOTH guns you can get military style peep sights for front and back, with adjustable windage and elevation. These increase accuracy immensely, giving almost 30 to 40% longer sight radius, and improving the target sight picture as well. Tech Sights

"With the Tech-Sights Marlin Model 60 aperture sights I feel like I am shooting a whole new rifle. With these sights I can see and hit small targets at the distances I knew my Marlin was capable of reaching. Shooting offhand at 25 yards I have progressed from 6-8” groups to 1” groups. The difference is like putting on your first pair of glasses and realizing once again that trees have individual leaves.
M.B. Nashville, TN"

"About a year or so ago I purchased my first set of Tech-Sights for my Ruger 10/22. The installation is a breeze and the quality of the hardware is first class. I get together with my shooting buddies on the weekends and we compete against each other for bragging rights. When I showed up with my 10/22 without the scope they thought there was no way I was going to be able to compete with them at a 100 yard setup. Needless to say I proved them wrong! All 4 of them had scopes on their rifles and shot for shot not one of them could match the accuracy with my Tech-Sight setup. No more trash talking about me and my open sights!"

One very Happy Customer,
Jay in Fuquay-Varina, NC

"I didn't have much time because the deer was running, but I was able to shoot quickly because the sight makes it easy to find your target. I think peep sights are way better than scopes, especially when the target is moving."
Erik N., New Richmond, Wisconsin

Just so you know, Tech Sights makes them for the following guns, which tells you these guns are good models for this kind of shooting. I will list them in order of overall preference for Appleseed;

Ruger 10/22 Sights

Marlin 795 Sights

Mossberg 702 Sights

CZ 452 Sights (BOLT action)

.30 caliber;

SKS Sights

AK Sights

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Old September 20, 2010, 08:52 PM   #28
Join Date: September 8, 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 98
By far, the Ruger 10/22 is the predominate rifle at Appleseed shoots. BUT, when you start shooting LOTS of rounds through them, things start stovepipes, etc. What I ended up doing on mine was a Volquartsen extractor, extended mag release, and started dinking with the trigger group to improve it. After going through all that, what I would do NOW is buy the Hornet (or similar) assembly and replace the whole shebang: (I don't own stock in Hornet, etc....just spent a lot of time dinking with this, and the whole unit is much easier!) So get a Volq. extractor and the trigger group, and you're done. EXCEPT if you have stock Ruger sights, which mentioned above, go with Tech Sights...they're great.

OR go with the Marlin....I've seen good things with them. Not a lot of problems...don't know if there's an aftermarket extractor for it or not...this seems to solve most of the stovepiping issues on all .22 rifles.

OR go with my personal favorite, the Remington 597...only thing it needs is the Volquartsen extractor. Already has a decent trigger pull, good mag release.

On any .22 rifles, you'll need AT LEAST 2 mags, preferably case you're in an area that does RFAQTs (rapid-fire AQT). We've just started doing them occasionally in Kansas....more predominate up north.

Oh...on the SKS. My son shoots mine with Tech Sights and loves it. Not a bad round, just doesn't have the "umph" that a .30-06 does at extended range.
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." —Theodore Roosevelt
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Old September 20, 2010, 09:06 PM   #29
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Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 10,843
There are those who will NEVER shoot well, for a variety of reasons.
I don't believe that.

The first thing they tell you at the CMP GSM Master Coach's Clinic is:


In my years of coaching NG Rifle & Pistol teams, as a LE firearms instructor, and running HP and Vintage Rifle Clinics I've found the above statement to be true.

Originally Posted by Tamara
Don't tell me we already have gamers and an equipment race in Appleseed...
Thankfully that isn't the case with CMP GSM matches, they are big on - AS ISSUED MEANS AS ISSUED.

Appleseed is a good program, but I would like to see them push more toward normal carry or hunting rifles and not drift to match shooting. The As Issued Concept, puts everyone on the same playing field, instead of going the route of ISU shooting which requires a $2000 rifle and $1500 worth of other clothing.

I don't want to see shooting sports turn into a rich man's sport. I like the ideal of a $100 dollar rifle, shooting surplus ammo, on the winners' board.
Kraig Stuart
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
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Old September 21, 2010, 07:25 AM   #30
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Location: Memphis
Posts: 353
Watch out buying Marlin 795's. At the moment 795's have a serious issue with the receiver. The dovetail is canted and some barres are not mounted straight. I bought on in late August. It shot great, but when i put tech sights on it, the sights leaned real bad to the right. I could not zero the sights. Windage was all the way to the left. Read threads about it. Everyone is having this issue with rifles built in 2009 or this year. My serial number started with 914. Marlin replaced the rifle, but i sold the new one. To much BS for a $125 rifle. IF you dont plan on mounting sights on the dovetail, it will be fine.
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Old September 21, 2010, 10:34 AM   #31
Join Date: August 22, 2006
Location: WI.
Posts: 64
moving on up

Ok, here is my take on building LRTs

.22lr are nice for plinking and practicing, but appleseed is about learning to shoot in defense of your county and you will not be doing that with rim fire.

Hand your existing .22lr to a junior and pick up your center-fire rifle and start shooting at real distances. Spend the money you were going to spend on a LRT on ammunition or reloading equipment for your big boy gun.

You will be amazed at how much more you will get out of each trigger pull and how much you will think about about what you have been taught before you squeeze the trigger when each shot costs 5 times as much as a .22lr
Stand up for whats right....Even if you stand alone.
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Old September 22, 2010, 10:56 PM   #32
Join Date: September 8, 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 98
A lot of shooters at our Appleseeds (Kansas) shoot rimfire on Saturday, and centerfire on Sunday....

We're about to get a KD (known distance) range going, where we'll be able to shoot to at least 500 yards, possibly to 1000. I've never shot over 300 yards, so I'm looking forward to this!

You're right about centerfire ammo, though....when I'm shooting my Garand, there is a LOT more concentration taking place than when shooting a .22...
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." —Theodore Roosevelt
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Old October 6, 2010, 06:18 PM   #33
Join Date: October 4, 2010
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 25
The Ruger 10 22 is the preferred rifle at Appleseed. BUT I had to spend some serious money on mine to finally get it to shoot reliably and to have decent groups. I bought the carbine at Wally World for about $250.00. First, the trigger is terrible and I bought a hornet trigger group to fix that. I was having FTF and a few ejection problems. Ended up buying a Kid bolt with pinned firing pin and upgraded extractor. Zero mechanical problems now. The last shoot at Appleseed I shot in the 190’s my groups were awful with some flyers added in. I thought my eyesight was going south. I pulled out my Marlin 60 with tech sights and shot practically a one hold 14 shot group (bagged up at the range). Next, I bought a Weaver Classic Rimfire 3X9 AO scope $200 + for the ruger. The rifle still wasn’t grouping well—still some flyers. FINALLY a new Hogue overmolded stock. The rifle now shoots about a 1.5 moa, the old stock was the culprit. The bottom line about $700 (including the scope and carbine) spent with no new barrel to get this rifle shooting well.
If I had it to do all over again I would personally go a different route with a Marlin 795. I have a brick of Wolf target match ready for the next Appleseed. The ruger likes that one.
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Old October 6, 2010, 09:23 PM   #34
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I have shot several rifles at Appleseed shoots.

At the first one I used my M1A for the first 13 shots. Then I switched to a Winchester 52 with standard peep sights. I found it difficult to see the one-inch black squares used to zero on Saturday. My eyes are considerably older than when I shot the 52 a lot. It had the advantage of easily taking a cotton Garand sling because the sling swivels were wide enough for one.

Next I used a Remingtion 541-T HB with a 4-16 power scope. I did somewhat better with the scope but had difficulties making my shots in the time limits. Another mag for the Remington would have helped a lot.

The most recent shoot I used my Ruger 10/22. It's been messed with to the tune of a trigger job, a heavy barrel, a Fajen red, white and blue laminated stock, and a 3.5-10 power scope. I had a pile of mags, of variou capacities, for the 10/22 and brought most of them along. Did not earn the rifleman patch but got closer with the 10/22. No problem with time limits. Shot low a lot and didn't notice it in time to correct the problem.

Have occasionally given some thought to using an M1 Carbine at a shoot. Sights are good and the carbine is accurate enough for 25 meter shooting. Will probably stick with the 10/22 though.
"To disarm the people (is) the best & most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason.
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