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Old September 7, 2009, 06:50 PM   #26
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I'm still waiting to have somebody explain to me how "transferring energy" kills an animal
Well.........I am no expert, but, on our last antelope hunt, my brother shot his antelope once through the chest. It was a good shot, that took 1 and 1/2 lungs, heart, and lots of arteries and veins. What amazed me was when he gutted it. The kidneys and liver had enough energy transfered from the impact of the bullet to literally explode them. All three organs looked like they had ruptured from the inside out, splitting into several pieces each like mud pie left a few hours in the sun, even though the bullet entrance/exits points were nowhere near them. The bullet may not have struck them, but it produced enough of a shockwave (or whatever you want to call it) to travel to, and rupture those organs.

The damage to the kidneys and liver may not have killed the doe, as it was losing blood from its heart and vessels like a firehose, but it was still very impressive to see the damage done to other areas of the animal by the impact of the bullet.
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Old September 7, 2009, 06:56 PM   #27
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I prefer to have the subject get full energy transfer to the body.
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Old September 7, 2009, 07:30 PM   #28
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The bullets I use (Hornady and Speer) have always shot through and given paralytic performance.
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Old September 7, 2009, 07:58 PM   #29
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i want whatever this guy is shooting
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Old September 7, 2009, 08:48 PM   #30
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That's a pretty good leak there - i've never seen anything like that.
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Old September 7, 2009, 11:40 PM   #31
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I don't really care if the bullet exits or not except that I like to examine and weigh bullets if I can recover them.

As far as killing, damage to vitals is what kills from my experience. From time to time when cleaning animals I have seen enormous damage to the internal organs and they did seem to die faster when this had occurred. I think this may be the hydro-shock some posters have mentioned.

I recall a deer about 20 years ago I shot with a 3006. The heart was the only part of the cardivascular gear identifiable. It was floating in a pile of chunky red goo that used to be the lungs. That deer went down hard. The exit wound from the 180 grain bullet was fist sized.

My moose from two years ago had enormous damage to it's internal organs...but I shot him through the spine at the hump. He went down like a brick. 338wm @ about 100 yards.

Last years deer was double lunged with a 338wm. He ran about 25 feet leaving a blood trail a blind man could follow and dropped dead. No "shock" damage, in and out through the lungs, lungs and heart were still intact. Deer was dead.

Last years moose was double lunged and the bullet clipped the top of the heart. 338wm @ about 100 yards. He took off like he had not been touched - for about 20 feet, then dropped dead. Apart from the significant wound channel there was not that much damage to the organs.

There a couple of examples where I have had quick clean kills with no exit wound and with exit wounds. I have had quick clean kills with the "shock" damage and without it, although I must say when there is "shock" damage they do seem to drop faster.

So with killing stuff the shock damage is fine but a deer, moose, elk, bear, etc is just as dead with a hole in it's lungs or heart. For this reason I feel a wound channel through something critical like a heart or lungs, whether the bullet stays in the body or not, is most important.
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Old September 8, 2009, 04:52 AM   #32
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great feedback guys im glad i started this thread, i have learned alot from various opinions and likes.

For an example though i reload 100gr hornady interlock in my .243 for about 2950fps. I have shot many pigs and goats with this load, with 95% exiting on the far side.. The exit holes vary in size but all the animals pretty much drop on the spot..

Some pigs have ran for 50 yds or so but some of them can be tough buggers.

I use 70gr Sierra Blitz king for the explosive thing... They have failed on pigs before especially when they have been caked with mud..

I generally opt for a head or neck shot when using this load. Its a great varmint load though

Our Sambar deer here in Victoria require a hard hitting deep penetrating bullet, i choose the 200gr woodleigh or the 180gr triple shock in my .300

Sambar will rarely go down on the first shot especially if the hounds are on its tail..

They would have to be the toughest of all deer species in my book.
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Old September 8, 2009, 11:19 AM   #33
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A bullet kills by shock, energy transfer if you will.
Bullets do not kill by shock, they kill by disrupting nervous impulses OR by depriving organs of oxygen by damaging circulatory organs and blood vessels. If a bullet killed by shock, there would be no wounded animals, since the shock would affect the animal no matter where it hit the animal, same as you kill a deer when you hit it in the hindquarters with a car. If a bullet killed by shock, it would also kill the person firing the rifle (remember Newton's laws?). Bullets create wound channels through hydrostatic shock, which is simply the inability to compress the water in animal tissues and bursting the cells around the point of entry.

As far as the original question, to me what matters is whether the animal falls over dead, no exit hole means nothing. Only about half of the game animals I have shot over the past 35 years has been pass-through shots.
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Old September 8, 2009, 12:33 PM   #34
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Taking out the bones and fat big game are about 75% water just like humans.

Go shoot a gallon milk jug full of water with a big rifle. I know there are arguments against the notion of hydrostatic shock, but it's like telling me to ignore what I see when I dress a deer.
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Old September 22, 2009, 04:26 PM   #35
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G'day, I've been away from TFL for a couple of weeks, so forgive me for my late input.

The comparison should be limited to projectiles with the same sectional dencity. what would be ideal is to only compare one particular prejectile (and caliber) through various guns. One example I will give is SIERRA #1365 .224 cal 55 gr SBT. This projectile will act more like a FMJ at velocities below 3000 fps.

The descussion so far seems to be like trying to compare varios types of racing cars. V8 4x4 mud racer to a NASCAR and a 4 cylinder rally car. How does a V8 taken from the NASCAR go in the 4x4? How does the 4x4 compare to the rally car? Remember you can still have some fun with the old ride on lawn mower that you lernt how to drive on.

Chuck Hawks has a good article titled 'The killing power of big game bullets.'
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Old September 22, 2009, 05:49 PM   #36
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a perfect bullet should stop right before exiting or just drop out of the deer and not keep going. With this happening the bullet has left all its potential in the deer or any game and it has done its job

Last edited by Deerhunter264; September 24, 2009 at 06:19 PM.
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Old September 22, 2009, 07:52 PM   #37
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I like to shoot 'em in the neck. Quickest drop. But I'd prefer the bullet to pass through in case I were to have to track it. Hey Deerhunter: did you mean deer or your ladyfriend?

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Old September 24, 2009, 07:20 AM   #38
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I like them to enter at the size of a pencil and to exit the size of a fist.
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Old September 24, 2009, 05:26 PM   #39
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In And Out, Baby In And Out. Good Luck
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Old September 24, 2009, 09:57 PM   #40
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The perfect bullet should destroy the heart and lungs and allow the animal to freely bleed out, or destroy the brain or spinal chord.
Whether it leaves the body or stays inside isn't that big a deal.
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