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Old August 23, 2009, 03:26 PM   #26
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First, I am glad that no one was injured in that incident. My heart goes out to that poor man. It is hard to know what causes a person to act in such an inappropriate manner. Thankfully, not all of us are mentally or physically incapacitated at age 70. I am, by the grace of God, still shooting pistols accurately and safely at least once a week. Just started teaching my 9 year old grandson to shoot pistols safely and correctly with his parents' permission. They also let me take him on trips during the summer to see Yellowstone and Grand Tetons NPs. I dread the day that my mental or physical condition will force me to give up these pleasures.
Good shooting and be safe.
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Old August 24, 2009, 08:55 AM   #27
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reminds me of my old 97 year old land lord when I was in college.

We had called and ordered a pizza, but Pop thought the delivery guy was a Yankee soldier, and fired off a round from his old trap door 45-70.

His family removed the rifle, and all was forgiven. Course that was back in the early 60's. and most certainly in another world from the one we live in now.
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Old August 24, 2009, 01:14 PM   #28
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When my grandfather started going senile my dad filed down the firing pin on his old Spanish Mauser. He was later committed to a VA mental hospital when his mentla and physical condition got too much for my grnadmother.

When my dad was starting to go downhill with Parkinsons he just gave me all his guns. I am a jump ahead of him. I am not waiting until I am disabled, I am giving many of my guns to my daughters and sons-in-law and just keeping a core collection. Lots more fun to see them enjoying the guns rather than just collecting dust.
"The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition."
- James Madison
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Old August 24, 2009, 06:53 PM   #29
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This may be the first time that thread drift on the internet hasn't bugged me. This has steered from yet another "doofus with a gun" thread to something viable and important.

I watched a relative disintegrate (I can think of no other word) from a combination of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Within six years, she went from being a tough old bird to being unable to identify her surroundings or relatives most days.

Should I start losing my mental faculties, I hope I would notice and still have enough lucidity to divest myself of my guns. Should I not, I hope that someone cares as much as Dwight did and intervenes.

Dwight, you did just fine.
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
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Old August 24, 2009, 07:44 PM   #30
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And until more information is presented actually verfiying that the defendant is mentally ill, he remains classified as "another doofuss with a gun."

We'll have to see if we get more information about this matter.

Although I don't mind the thread drift.
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Old August 24, 2009, 07:56 PM   #31
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This is not to justify anyone's actions or take sides, but why would someone having legitimate business on another's property not ring the doorbell or knock and inform the resident what he/she is doing there. I suppose an exception would be the postal carrier, or a meter reader, but those people usually are in a marked vehicle, are in uniform and/or are expected.

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Old August 24, 2009, 08:47 PM   #32
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This is not to justify anyone's actions or take sides, but why would someone having legitimate business on another's property not ring the doorbell or knock and inform the resident what he/she is doing there. I suppose an exception would be the postal carrier, or a meter reader, but those people usually are in a marked vehicle, are in uniform and/or are expected.

If the land is not posted you can enter without permission for lawful purposes. It could be they had permission and the gentleman forgot he gave it, someone else could have given permission and told them not to disturb him. They could have rang the bell and received no answer and decided to go ahead and check the damage as long as they were there.
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Old August 24, 2009, 09:04 PM   #33
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The article doesn't say and we have assumed, however they could have rung the bell and that is when he came out with his gun. The article is very short on details unless I have missed something but it could have been while they were walking up to the door. We have assumed (that word again) that they were walking around the house but we don't know.
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Old September 11, 2009, 03:41 PM   #34
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There appear to be some assumptions, because there was a young girl, that the guy was likely having medical/mental problems and should be pitied. It reminds us of our responsibilities to protect older loved ones. If your loved one is currently lucid, now may be the time to discuss with them what to do with firearms in the days to come.
On the flip side, this may be an unreasonably mean person. They are out there, folks. Angry and mean spirited. I worked with one such guy for about six years before he retired. Couple of years later guy shot his wife, called the cops and told them what he’d done, then shot himself before they could get there to intervene.
If the guy in the lead story is one of the nasty mean types, instead of senile, mental, emotional, etc., then I would hope something can be done to mitigate the danger he poses to others.
Question: If you were the insurance adjuster or dad in this story, how would you retreat from the gun wielding old guy? Back away? Turn away from him? Slow and easy or rapidly?
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Old September 11, 2009, 05:56 PM   #35
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Sorry to stay on topic here (I keed I keed), but I'd like to just throw out there that the presence of the cute little girl does not mean the people are any less of a threat. Granted the old guy shouldn't have shot at them the way he did, but just because someone comes to your door with a child doesn't mean you let your guard down. Remember the ol' "pretty young lady that needs to use the bathroom" and next thing you know all your jewelry and Rx meds are gone. When I've been in various cities where beggars use small children to get people to let their guard down etc. Obviously no one wants to think of a small child being used to help commit a robbery, but those criminals are clever bastards. Again, what the guy did was wrong, but children do not have an Aura of Good with a radius of 10 yards (shout out to all the nerds out there) that prevents everyone around them from doing bad things, so they are not a reason to not be aware of other red flags or signs.
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Old September 18, 2009, 12:47 PM   #36
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I have read this 2 pages and I did not see if he shot at any one.nor does any one know any thing about the ever you have all made
remarks upon this including that the man may be crazy because hes 70.then you go on about relatives.not all older people are in dementia.
one other thing your remarks about the law are based on your state and may not apply in state considers if you are on someones property you are trespassing and you should know it so your in a very precarious position.
I may agree that he was a little quick but we dont know if he had a lot of that.I had people drive by my house whitch is on my private road.untill I put up a sign saying danger private property. as to age yes some have problems but not all I reload, repair guns ect.and I shoot better than ever and drive carefully.and am 85 and expect to reach 100 like my parents and theirs.
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Old September 18, 2009, 03:16 PM   #37
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Quote: other thing your remarks about the law are based on your state and may not apply in state considers if you are on someones property you are trespassing and you should know it so your in a very precarious position.
Teddy, in your state that "precarious position" would appear to require you to depart upon request; if you refuse you may be arrested by a law enforcement officer for committing a misdemeanor.

Don't even consider displaying a weapon.

I agree that the comments about possible dementia are way out of line, but based on the facts as reported the man broke the law where he lives, and anyone doing the same thing in most places in this country would also have erred.

A number of people (I'm not including you) seem to think they have the right to take the law into their own hands when they are on their property. With the exception of instances involving unlawful entry into an occupied domicile, car, or place of business in some states, laws involving the use of deadly force or the threat of deadly force usually apply equally to one in his yard, on water company easement, or on the courthouse lawn.

Too much television, maybe?

States do vary, but a long standing principle in trespass law is that the remedy is to request departure and to report the offense if necessary, since detaining the trespasser would defeat the entire purpose of the law, which is to keep him off private property in the first place.
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Old September 18, 2009, 06:29 PM   #38
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I'm trying to figure out why he felt the need to throw down in the first place.
LOL, I am trying to figure out why the inspector brought along the father-daughter duo. The inspector might have had permission to be there for a job, but I doubt that permission including guests and their children.

No, it doesn't make the shooting right, but it is another odd aspect to the situation.
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Old September 18, 2009, 07:30 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Occasionally, one will encounter a law that has different application on one's own property than elsewhere.
That is the case in Arizona. While the changes to the law on conclealed carry are welcome, they don't affect the law regarding defense of premises. Threatening, even with deadly force is justified against trespass out here. Actually using deadly force is another matter.

ARS 13-407. Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises

A. A person or his agent in lawful possession or control of premises is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force or in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of a criminal trespass by the other person in or upon the premises.

B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406.

C. In this section, "premises" means any real property and any structure, movable or immovable, permanent or temporary, adapted for both human residence and lodging whether occupied or not.
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Old September 19, 2009, 08:26 AM   #40
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Reading threads like this makes me thank God every day that both sides of my family has a LONG history of remaining fully lucid up to the end.

My Grandfather was 86 and was still a practicing engineer. He was on his way to a meeting about renovations to an industrial building he was overseeing when a stroke got him.
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Old September 19, 2009, 12:01 PM   #41
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My Grandfather was 86 and was still a practicing engineer.
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I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
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