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Old August 8, 2009, 09:10 PM   #26
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,544
I stated at the top that all of this is assuming it's legal to detain an intruder in your area.
I understand that citizens' arrests are lawful everywhere except North Carolina, and that in North Carolina one may detain a suspect for the police under certain circumstances.

Permissible circumstances vary a great deal.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the fact of a forcible unlawful entry into one's domicile would probably justify a citizen's arrest. Lay opinion.

However, deadly force would not be justified to prevent escape, unless a particularly heinous crime had been committed--and even then, in only one or two jurisdictions in the country.

More importantly, a citizen's arrest can place the citizen at very great risk, both in terms of potential criminal charges and in regard to civil liability.

A sworn officer is indemnified by his community against civil liability. But a citizen who effects a citizen's arrest is not, and he is completely responsible for whatever harm should befall the intruder from the point of the arrest forward. Chest pains? Uh oh!

So the obvious question is, why would anyone in his right mind put himself and his fortune in jeopardy to try to prevent the escape of someone, when the departure of same would suffice in ending the immediate threat?

Someone might be tempted to muse about what the perp just might do later. Not relevant to justification of the use of deadly force anywhere, I'm afraid, and not something i'd put my life, liberty and personal fortune at stake for...particularly when the fellow might well walk a few hours later anyway.

I have used forearms to stop three home invasions, without firing a shot. All three intruders fled or chose to depart, and that reduced the level of danger immediately and significantly. I incurred no large legal expenses. Good outcome.
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Old August 8, 2009, 10:22 PM   #27
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Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
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A couple of questions come immediately to mind. This side of the story is so outrageous that there must be other factors involved.

Does the Sheriff have some kind of relationship with the three goat-rustlers? Or a beef with the Goatherd?

What are the laws in this jurisdiction about 1) firearms, 2) goat theft or property crimes in general and the use of deadly force in enforcing ownership rights?

Why were the three guys not charged with theft, since there was clearly a complainant present? Were they asserting some kind of ownership rights over the goats or did the old man refuse to file a charge? Is there a reason the Sheriff could not have arrested everyone, if there were uncertainties about the events or status?

The time he spend in jail, was that being held for trail, arraignment or something or was he found guilty of something and thus served a sentence?

Lost Sheep

he was charged with assult with a deadly weapon, and the charges were later dropped. he still hasent got his shot gun back either.

the goat theives were illegals from a farm a few miles down the road.

and the sherriff was big time anti gun, and thought to use the guy in his re-election campaign.
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
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Old August 8, 2009, 10:44 PM   #28
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 21,021
legally you may be better off if "they came right at you" and you had to shoot them.
Suggesting that you kill someone when you don't need to in order to simplify legal matters is completely unacceptable at TFL.

You can not shoot criminals to make your life easier or to avoid prosecution, that is called MURDER.
Originally Posted by EMB135Driver
If it's just you and the criminal in a room, with no witnesses, my gut tells me that you could do whatever your conscience could handle if he wasn't compliant...
Folks, deadly force laws do NOT give you the power of God over a criminal--you don't automatically get to shoot them because they don't obey you. The deadly force laws ONLY give you very limited rights to prevent certain carefully described crimes.

The only time it's legal to shoot someone for not obeying you is if they are committing or about to commit one of the very specific crimes that justifies deadly force and you command them to stop.

<<<After an PM exchange with Matt (EMB135Driver), I don't believe I accurately characterized his comment above. It was, rather, a case of miscommunication. He did not intend to imply that one should take advantage of the lack of witnesses in order to shoot a criminal solely for failing to comply.>>>

Just to make it very plain.

If you think that shooting people is a good solution in situations where deadly force is not legally justified then this is your warning to keep it to yourself on TFL. TFL was created for the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership. That does not include shooting people because they won't obey you or because it's legally risky to detain people.
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?

Last edited by JohnKSa; August 9, 2009 at 11:41 PM. Reason: Added note from PM Exchange
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