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Old July 29, 2009, 07:44 PM   #1
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Lack of training in a state with lax gun laws.

I am just writing this in response to my suprise that I have been able to find little to no training classes being held around Vermont when it comes to tactics, let alone safety training. Having lived in vermont for some time now, I know for a fact it has some of the best (albeit lax) gun laws in the states.
I guess this is what suprised me.... In a state where it is MUCH easier to obtain a firearm than most others,(I waited about ten minutes for my SW9) I think someone would want to offer at least a safety class.

I'm lucky enought to feel that I am safe when I go to the range and I'm always big on safety, but even I would also like at least a bit of formal training before I start ccw (which I plan to do).

But what about the guys I've seen at the range who happened to have a couple grand laying around and decided it they should just go buy an AK knock off cause it looks cool. It's people like that in states with lax laws that buy dumb to own, mean looking guns and then proceed to make me feel unsafe at my own range, that give ownership a bad name.

If anything i want training to keep me safe from the gangsta wannabe showoffs!
well... that turned into a rant fast.

Second point aside.... I would like to find a reasonably priced, even short, ccw class in Vermont that wont cost much and is easily available to get into. I'll even pay someone in the area to meet up and give me some pointers. I'm just suprised at how little is out there.

Last edited by My870inVT; July 30, 2009 at 05:26 PM. Reason: bad title
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Old July 29, 2009, 10:14 PM   #2
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Might be a matter of economics...

... when money is tight, demand for training that isn't mandatory is going to be pretty low; this has a corresponding impact on supply. Why offer classes people aren't asking for?

I'm not saying they shouldn't ask, just saying that it's human nature not to pay for something you don't have to, when money is tight.

Have you looked at NH or ME? MA, CT, and NY would have classes, but are not states where I'd want to bring a handgun. Too many legal hoops, even to attend a class.
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Old July 29, 2009, 10:42 PM   #3
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As far as ccw classes in VT go...

... VT doesn't issue ccw permits. Any non-felon without current restraining orders or domestic violence issues, and not adjudicated mentally incompetent, can carry concealed in Vermont. Therefore, there are not likely to be any CCW classes. Such classes are usually focused on the ccw laws of the state in which the class is taught.

For general CCW issues, you could try NH, where they are gun friendly and do have ccw laws. The classes there would apply, in general, though not in the legal particulars of Vermont.

Or, for your purposes, the NRA should be able to help you with a basic safety course.

You might also try a hunter safety course. Contact your local fish and game, dept of wildlife, or whatever VT calls it.
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Old July 29, 2009, 10:42 PM   #4
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Amen Bro

Hey man I would love to help ya, even meet up and go through some stuff with you but I live in the Lone Star State... sucks man I wish I lived in Vermont... lol open carry! If you have some questions that I can help you with just PM me... later
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Old July 29, 2009, 10:43 PM   #5
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The class I took in maine was a joke.

Hardly matters.

I'm legally allowed to CARRY a gun; not to USE it. If I use it, I have a bunch of people i need to convince in order to remain a free citizen.

Vermont has no permit requirement. Carry as you please. So what are you looking for, exactly?

edit: reread and possibly understand your question. You're worried about the wrong people in your state having access without training?

How many gun homicides in your state in the past decade?
How many shootouts have you escaped?
How many road rage incidents have ended in gunfire in your state?
How many times a day do you have to show someone your gun just to get along with your day?

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Old July 29, 2009, 10:45 PM   #6
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When in doubt...

... your local Army and Marine Corps recruiters would be more than happy to sign you up for one of their first-rate weapons training courses. They won't even charge you for them.


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Old July 29, 2009, 11:36 PM   #7
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classes are offered in GA but not as CCW classes. They are learn to shoot/gun basics classes. And of course, more advanced versions of them. I don't think I am less qualified to carry as the next guy because I took my time at the range, and off the range doing what I need to do for my own peace of mind. I don't see what the big deal is here.
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Old July 30, 2009, 12:35 AM   #8
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I think the poster feels unsafe at his gun range. I understand this, I feel unsafe when I'm around anyone other than myself who is shooting, and sometimes I'm a little wary of myself. Seriously though, it can be very unnerving and angering shooting around people you don't trust or who you don't feel are following proper safety measures. We've all experienced this I"m sure. I sure have, heck, I've had neighbors and hunters shoot my house, on multiple occasions. It's enough to make you want to pickup a gun and do a little firing back and see if that doesn't ingrain some safety into them.

The sad fact is there are a lot of people who don't have, either yet or simply not at all, an ingrained respect of firearms and what they can do. There are newbs, there are old timers who have gotten calloused and careless, there are then gangbanger punk types who are trying out the moves they saw in the latest action movie at the cinema. You'll see a lot of this in your shooting lifetime.

The only solution I've found for that, is don't shoot around other people, you can just never tell what someone is going to do. I don't know about you, but I'd sure hate to become someones accidental casualty.

Good luck finding anywhere to shoot privately though.
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Old July 30, 2009, 05:49 AM   #9
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Tell me, do you need a driver's license in Vermont?
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Old July 30, 2009, 07:45 AM   #10
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Just an idea to throw out at the OP:

Contact the NRA about setting up some classes, work with the range to see if you could be an instructor. Gather what resources are available and use them to increase the awareness of people around you.

Obviously you have some gun sense, because you are concerned. I stopped shooting at public ranges (and hunting on public land) for the exact same reason you stated. Too many youngster's have learned to shoot watching videos on the internet, from movies ("I want you to try to curve that bullet."), and video games.
Legally they are able to own a firearm, but many of them are not mature enough to understand the responsibilities that go with firearm ownership.

You have identified a need, try to do something about it. (I leave hunter safety flyer's and training course info at the public ranges even though I do not shoot their any longer. It also gives me a chance to pick up extra brass. )
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Old July 30, 2009, 07:48 AM   #11
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curve the bullet? :barf:
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Old July 30, 2009, 08:59 AM   #12
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Tell me, do you need a driver's license in Vermont?
I don't understand what that has to do with the price of tea in China

If you mean "all states have drivers licenses so it dumbfounds me that they don't have permits to carry concealed"... well then it still doesn't make sense.

The RTKBA is constitutionaly protected. It is a RIGHT. Driving a vehicle is not constitutionaly protected, although we must admit that vehicles didn't exist back then. Even though, horses did exist as a primary means of transportation and it wasn't a constitutional RIGHT to own a horse, ride a horse, or do anything else with one for that matter. Driving is a privelege, the RTKBA is not a privelege. BTW, requiring a permit constitutes "infringement" IMHO.

<prepares to be BBQd for following paragraph>

On the other hand, I'm not going to spout off rhetoric without seeing your side. Were it not for being unconstitutional, I would fully support CCW class requirements. CCW class is something REALLY REALLY smart to take if you're going to carry, regardless if it is required in your state or not. Every state is a little different on the ins and outs of use of deadly force. You need to know the laws, and that's what CCW classes do best (teach ROEs, basically). Honestly, I would support permits to buy any firearm... if for no other reason than to promote safety courses. The biggest thing that bugs me about permit processes is that it's being used as another form of tax. Some states have exhorbit permit fees just to own a firearm. This is indeed infringement. This entire paragraph, though, is just how I feel and not what is constitutional. Shall not be infringed is exactly that. IMHO.

To the OP. I completely understand what you mean. If you really want to be scared, though, go to a ccw class. My first one wasn't so bad, but the last one I did... well it was scary. I always thought that people who would actually carry a weapon concealed would be a little more than marginally competent. Firing from the 7 yard line, and every target except for 2 looked like a buckshot pattern from 20 yards.
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Old July 30, 2009, 09:13 AM   #13
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Driving is a privelege

Incorrect, the right to travel freely is constitutionally protected, and the manner of conveyance notwithstanding.

It was not until the States saw a goldmine in the issuance of a "driver license" around 1930, that this misconception became popularly espoused, usually by traffic cops and judges. The only drivers license that is required is for commercial drivers on interstate roads. This works much the same as the requirement that you have a hunting "license" to take game on your own property, it is a tax on stupidity. Back to your regularly scheduled thread....

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Last edited by OuTcAsT; July 30, 2009 at 09:19 AM.
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Old July 30, 2009, 09:17 AM   #14
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I guess this is what suprised me.... In a state where it is MUCH easier to obtain a firearm than most others,(I waited about ten minutes for my SW9) I think someone would want to offer at least a safety class.
Has there been a huge problem with firearms related accidents in VT? I didn't think so.

That said, I'm sure there are any number of classes available, just not well advertised. Contact the NRA.
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Old July 30, 2009, 09:25 AM   #15
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Let me get this straight......

You live in a state with some of the most relaxed gun laws in the nation. You don't seem to have a problem buying a gun without restriction buy are concerned about others who do....

You want to take a CCW class when one is not required which shows you don't even know your own state laws.

You think your are a safe gun user but you don't trust others. Ever consider that they think the same about you????

Lastly you think because someone dress different then you or has the cash to buy an AK they are a danger to you....

It sounds like you should move to california....
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Old July 30, 2009, 09:31 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by My870inVT
But what about the EDITED I've seen at the range who happened to have a couple grand laying around and decided it they should just go buy an AK knock off cause it looks EDITED. It's people like that in states with lax laws that buy dumb to own, mean looking guns and then proceed to make me feel unsafe at my own range, that give ownership a bad name.
As has been pointed out, you might want to start your education with learning about "EDITED looking knock off AKs." Just my opinion.

As for the danger at public ranges, I totally agree with that, although the danger is just as great or greater with hand guns than the evil black rifles or evil russian rifles in the hands of those with no concern for safety.

Most of what you would learn at a class can be garnered from the internet for those with an interest in learning. I suggest finding some training and then provide others in the area training. Who knows, maybe you could start the first IDPA club in VT.
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Last edited by NightSight; July 30, 2009 at 05:27 PM.
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Old July 30, 2009, 10:07 AM   #17
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Yet again it seems like a lot of folks think that if you own a gun you must be on an internet forum and regularly shoot 100's of rounds of ammo and take expensive training classes. Anybody who doesn't do this and buys a gun is dumb. I would submit that people that fit in the first category are vastly outnumbered by the second category. And I guess the carnage in VT from these folks is such that there "oughtta be a law".

Last edited by nitetrane98; July 30, 2009 at 06:32 PM.
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Old July 30, 2009, 03:00 PM   #18
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Depending on the Nanny Filter to keep your posts within the family friendly guidelines is not advised. I sent one PM, but then saw it throughout this thread.

6 hours. 10 PM tonight. Then any post that hasn't been cleaned up will be deleted.
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Old July 30, 2009, 03:50 PM   #19
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The above links might help you find some courses which you may want to take to increase your knowledge and skills.
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Old July 30, 2009, 05:21 PM   #20
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Wow I just re-read my post and it really should have been two different threads. That being said.

I'm not new to guns. I feel safe when I'm around them and i'm actually quite a good shooter.

My point about taking a class I guess was just worded wrong. I don't feel that everyone should have to take a class. I just feel that before I start carrying, I want to learn how to "handle myself" so to speak in a dangerous situation. basically safe holster use, front sight firing, reloading under pressure... you get the idea. I guess what I should have said was that I want some Tactical training, not so much a safety course.

As far as my little rant that belonged in another thread. It was based on a few incidences at my local public range that have scared the stuffing out of me. As in litterally had an AK shot in the direction of me and my friends because some kid was spraying and lost control over his weapon.

Lastly I want to apologize about the AK knock off comment, it was just the first gun to come to mind (thank you cnn)... but I live in a mixed wealth area and it's not uncommon to some spoiled rich kid who does have a grand lying around grab the first thug looking gun off the shelf and a couple hundred rounds and head down to a local pit and start spraying at a TV from 15 yards while i'm trying to teach a friend how to shoot skeet. This again is based off of a few select experiences of mine and i was in no way trying to discredit anyone's choice of rifle.

thank you all,
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