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Old June 14, 2009, 11:02 PM   #76
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RE: Texas GS Law:

"stop and render aid" does not mean that you have to physically stop and start compressions on someone or anything else. When I took my Red Cross class, this was explained to us. Using your cell phone to call 911 is "stopping and rendering aid." That is all that you have to do.

RE: OP, I think not, outside of tossing the BG a shirt and explaining how to apply pressure. I may be so inclined as to offer up supplies out of my small pocket FAK if it will help. All of the reasons fornot acting that I could mention have been brought up so far. I do not know if the BG is 'faking', otherwise armed, accompanied by friends, infected, etc. I am not going to compromise my safety. At work, however, it may be a different story. If somebody is on my post (i work security) and deadly force is necessitated, I will do my best to 'secure' the area, call for back-up and EMS, then do what I can, even if it is to simply toss the BG some Quik-Clot and instruct from a distance while keeping my weapon at low ready...
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Last edited by DougO83; June 14, 2009 at 11:10 PM.
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Old June 15, 2009, 09:59 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by cloud8a
correct me if I am wrong and do not jump all over me for this but using lethal force is for stopping the threat, not NECESSARILY making it die. This might be an ethics issue I do not know. But once you stopped the threat (the guy is on the ground gasping for breath from your bullets) Is there a civil obligation to try and keep him alive?

Point in question, the criticism California police got for supposedly letting the North Hollywood bank robber to die after a fully automatic gunfight.
The criticism only came from the bank robbers' families. I forgot who posted this, but the order of priorities is police officers first, innocent bystanders second, and then bad guys last. If he died before they got to him, too bad.

As for the police chief, he was sued by the ACLU because they claimed he stopped/prevented first aid to be given because he knew the victim was gay. That is a civil suit based on discrimination against gays, not any obligation to render first aid.

Please check your facts before spouting things off the top of your head. The internet is already full of disinformation.
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Old June 15, 2009, 01:18 PM   #78
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I do not need to check my facts if I say that what I am saying is coming off the top of my head.

On the North Hollywood deal, it does not matter where the criticism came from. The FACT is it showed up, and started a legal process. Maybe it did not go very far but it started.

You are giving your opinion. He might have stopped CPR because of a health concern. Not because the guy was gay. That was the families opinion.

and all that is my opinion.
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Old June 15, 2009, 01:24 PM   #79
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1) The individual is dangerous (based on the fact that his/her actions led me to fear for my life).
2) The individual is desperate (fear of dying and fear or arrest)
3) The individual may be "playing possum" or playing dead.

If you are giving CPR--how will arriving LEOs take that?? Other CPL holders??

Will you be thought trying to do more 'harm" to the perp and thus place yourself in jeoprady??
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Old June 16, 2009, 09:08 PM   #80
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I will give the thug the same love and compassion he was trying to give me when he attacked me/my family.

Last edited by bdturner; June 16, 2009 at 09:09 PM. Reason: spell ck
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Old June 16, 2009, 09:27 PM   #81
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absolutly not.They were dumb @@$$ enough to try and rob,hurt my family.LET EM LAY THERE,sorry but i worked hard to provide what i can for my family and i'll be D%^& if some retard will come and take it if i can help it.

Besides i don't want to find out i was given some disease,my insurance wouldn't cover anything like that.

Last edited by dabigguns357; June 16, 2009 at 09:32 PM.
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Old June 16, 2009, 10:02 PM   #82
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The way I see it...

I'm a resident general surgeon and am soon to be trauma chief resident at a level I center.

If a penetrating injury is instantly lethal--that is the person drops without a pulse, don't bother getting your hands dirty, its over.

If a penetrating injury quickly causes some sort of cardiac or pulmonary instability (this is the person who will lose a blood pressure or develop respiratory failure within minutes) the only life saving procedures one could usually offer can only be performed at a hospital and usually in the operating room (with the exception of a temporizing tourniquet on a bleeding extremity). Similarly, if someone has a severe head injury and is unconscious but with pulse, they need intervention. In the unstable population, the "platinum 10 minutes" and "golden hour" are often used to look at how critical time is managed.

The last category are those who have an injury that might be life threatening, but who are stable (i.e. bowel injury). These folks may have lethal or non-lethal injuries, but are, lets say, not going to die within the hour (think Civil War). Their outcome is likely not dependent on initial first-aid. In fact, this is the person you might consider a persistent threat.

My point is simple. If someone has a life-threatening injury, your priority is to call 911 ASAP. Even EMS is not designed to 'save' these people, but rather to get them to a trauma center within 10 minutes, and provide as much ancillary intervention as possible along the way (I used to be an EMT for 4 years, so I understand this from both perspectives). Unless, you can place chest tubes, transfuse blood, crack a chest, or open an abdomen in your living room, any at-home intervention is most likely futile--with the rare exception (i.e. a man faints from the sound of your gunfire and falls unconscious, face-first into your dog's water bowl).

CPR is <5% effective in all patients brought in from the field, and probably 99% of those with penetrating trauma, requiring CPR, will die. If a person loses pulse from GSW "en route", we open their left chest in the ER, clamp the aorta and perform manual compressions. If CPR was in progress since the time they were picke up, I just pronounce them.

I hope this helps. Bottom line is that no amount of care or level of care administered short of a trauma center will be seen as having a role in the person's overall outcome (being that such lethal injuries are virtually all surgical emergencies), ONLY the timeliness in which the person notified the authorities and assisted in the efficiency of that transfer. Lastly, practically no heroic attempt to save a victim of gunshot is worth exposure to hepatitis, HIV, or swine flu .

Last edited by surg_res; June 16, 2009 at 10:09 PM.
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Old June 17, 2009, 07:03 PM   #83
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And should you render what (non-professional) aid you can, just wait for the buldoon's family to come all over legal like with accusations that you made things worse. Especially if said buldoon dies despite your efforts at aid. Not I, said the Walrus.
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Old June 17, 2009, 10:09 PM   #84
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As as safely possible...

I will call 911 and inform them of the situation.

My name is [fill in as needed]. I need police and EMT immediately. My location is [fill in blank]. I was attacked by and shot an armed attacker. He has a [fill in the blank type of] wound and seems [conscious unconscious]. No other attackers apparent - or - hostile gunfire likely/ possible/ incoming from [location or direction]. I am armed legally and wearing [give description of me]. What do you want me to do?
With so many other variables that have already been mentioned, that's as far as I would go to start.

Depending of my assessment of the total situation, I might dig out the very limited first aid kit in the car and see if the bandages would help.

I might also mess my pants and whimper for awhile...
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Old June 17, 2009, 10:16 PM   #85
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What I'm qorried about is if the criminal tried to fight again.
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Old June 18, 2009, 01:18 AM   #86
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I watched Most Shocking tonight on spike. Officers pulled over a Cadillac. the passenger attempted to engage an officer with a firearm. Officer shot him several times. Once the scene was secure the officers began performing CPR. Just throwing that out there.
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Old June 18, 2009, 01:32 AM   #87
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Once the scene was secure the officers began performing CPR. Just throwing that out there.
I would say that the scene is not secure until the responding officers say it's secure. That's the approach paramedics/EMTs take--they will not render aid after a shooting until the police say the scene is safe.
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Old June 18, 2009, 01:55 AM   #88
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I would not. I would call 911 and wait. Get out of his LOS, but keep him in mine
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Old June 18, 2009, 03:51 AM   #89
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I would say that the scene is not secure until the responding officers say it's secure. That's the approach paramedics/EMTs take--they will not render aid after a shooting until the police say the scene is safe.
Absolutely. I used to be part of a volunteer fire department. We responded to a fire at the residence of a man with whom the police were very familiar. we waited, while the house burned, a few blocks away until the police showed up to ensure that we would be safe. In this case, it's called "staging." No first responder, etc has any obligation to step into an unsafe scene to render aid.
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Old June 18, 2009, 07:25 PM   #90
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They will lay there and bleed until the paramedics and police come. I'm not an emergency medical technician.

I'm pretty sure when a Law Enforcement Officer shoots someone they call EMS and don't start administering first aid?
+1 and I AM an EMT. Treating them would possibly be the dumbest thing you could do. Try explaining that you shot him to protect yourself and then decided to help him after you put a couple bullet holes in him. The prosecuting attorney will have a ball with this one
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