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Old May 15, 2009, 05:51 PM   #1
Thalor
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Engraved Sauer 38H

I am hoping to find some information about this gun. It has an E/C acceptance stamp, and all of the E/N proofs, SN 305178. Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Matt
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 305178 L.jpg (113.6 KB, 628 views)
File Type: jpg 305178 R.jpg (79.6 KB, 409 views)
File Type: jpg 305178 Mono.jpg (82.2 KB, 377 views)
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Old May 17, 2009, 03:12 PM   #2
old knife buddy
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do you no what calibur , most where made in 35cal [7.65x17] some in 380 and 22lr which where rare made 1938 t0 1945 around 200,000 made. try looking under jp sauer & sohn. far as chrome and ingraved an was not redone in the future u could have something as they where presentaion guns to german lufwaffer, ss and certain police one sold for over 40,000 with proof..
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Old May 17, 2009, 07:28 PM   #3
Thalor
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It is marked 7,65 , which according to what I have read makes it the same as 32 ACP. Here are some more pictures.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 305178 Clip Bottom.jpg (62.8 KB, 343 views)
File Type: jpg 305178 H H Hammer.jpg (75.2 KB, 310 views)
File Type: jpg 305178 SN EN.jpg (44.1 KB, 305 views)
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Old May 17, 2009, 08:16 PM   #4
Jim Watson
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I see what looks like some light pitting under the plating on the bottom of the butt and the magazine floorplate.

If so, I would place this as a souvenir pistol dressed up with engraving and plating during the Occupation. J.P. Sauer would not turn out a gun marred like that.
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Old May 18, 2009, 11:44 PM   #5
James K
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+1 with Jim. The markings indicate standard German military issue, and certainly no issue pistol ever looked like that. The engraving is not bad; after the war, work of that type was often done in Germany for GI's on souvenir weapons. The cost is indicated by the fact that it was commonly called "carton of cigarettes" engraving, though that is a bit better, maybe a case of rations or two cartons of cigarettes.

Value? I don't know. As with any custom work, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that gun would not be to everyone's taste.

Jim
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Old May 19, 2009, 07:16 AM   #6
old knife buddy
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jim k i thought during the war they stoped making them with safteys this one has one.It looks to be pre war with a 30,000 serial no. could have been chromed later. just asking ? or rechromed as u guys say with the pitting {as my other posts they where given as gifts to special nazis. also said could be faked. should be checked by and expert]

Last edited by old knife buddy; May 19, 2009 at 07:21 AM.
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Old May 19, 2009, 11:54 PM   #7
James K
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The serial is 305178, not 35xxx, so it is fairly early in the war era. They started at 260000, where the Behorden model left off, and went to around 600000. The very late models omitted both the manual safety and the cocking/decocking lever.

I understand that the pre-production models had no manual safety. The one used was installed at the request of the Luftwaffe, which was to be the major customer. I have not been able to locate a picture of the early "no safety" model, but at least one other person has confirmed that it existed.

I believe the story because the safety is both backward (compared with every other such pistol) and totally superfluous. Maybe the answer is that the pistol was intended for parachute troopers, so a "make safe without decocking" mechanism was thought useful. (In the German service, parachute and glider troops were part of the air force, not the army.)

Naturally, any engraved German gun of the era is often thought to be a special presentation piece for Hitler or some other high ranking officer or politician. Of couse, such guns were made and presented, but they were always engraved with the name of the honoree and the occasion of the presentation, plus they are not just military guns gussied up. They are almost always special pistols made up for the purpose.

I say all this just to alert newbies that gun show gurus often try to pass engraved pistols such as this one off as presentation pistols. Sometimes, they even have an engraver add a famous name. Göring is a favorite, but Fatty might not have been amused at the wondrous variations of his name.

Jim
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Old June 16, 2009, 08:27 PM   #8
Thalor
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Sauerfan, please opine

Martin, I'd like your opinion on this piece, please.
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Old June 17, 2009, 07:53 AM   #9
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Jim,

Several things to be mentioned:

Quote:
They started at 260000, where the Behorden model left off, and went to around 600000
1/ 1/ The Behördenmodell stopped at 23x.xxx and never reached the 260.xxx border, simply because the model 28 vest pocket model, 2nd variation started at 250001 up to 254.xxx approximately. 2/ Production of the model 38/H stopped at 506.xxx with 506910 being the highest known having German acceptance markings. After US troops occupied the factory, some thousand were made from remaining parts up to 513.xxx and some starting in a totally new SN block 1 to 700 approximately.

Quote:
The very late models omitted both the manual safety and the cocking/decocking lever.
No, that is not true. The late war models did not have the thumb safety lever any longer, but they ALL had the cocking/decocking lever. Only some of the GI souvenir pistols did not have the lever.

Quote:
I understand that the pre-production models had no manual safety. The one used was installed at the request of the Luftwaffe, which was to be the major customer.
Not only the pre-production models did not have the thumb safety, but also the series production models in the range 260001 to 2636xx approximately, Consequently, the first 3,600 did not have the thumb safety.
Quote:
The one used was installed at the request of the Luftwaffe, which was to be the major customer
Sorry, but there are only two characters to describe this. The first is a “B”….. Sorry, no offences intended, I guess your information comes from this “article”:

http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_...306/index.html

The author even can’t read the serial number….. it isn’t 606910 as stated, but 506910 as can be clearly seen on page 3. Anyway, it is totally wrong, that the Luftwaffe was 1/ requesting the safety and 2/ being the major customer. The safety was introduced on “request” of the Army being the major "customer".

Interesting in this article also: “the gun of the Paratroopers”. Yeah, sure! I like all those Wikipedia stuff: “the vast majority of the HiPower was delivered to the SS”, the “Sauer 38/H was the gun of the Tank troops and the Luftwaffe” (German Wikipedia), and so on. Seems, all gun were only delivered to special “elite” troops….. but what about the average infantry and artillery officer?

Quote:
I have not been able to locate a picture of the early "no safety" model, but at least one other person has confirmed that it existed.
Here, you can see (post #6) one of mine:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=275911



@Thalor:

As you expressively asked for my opinion: well, without having seen and examined the gun personally, it isn’t easy to make a statement. Is the eagle/N proof marking present also on the slide? If not, you can forget the idea of an original pre-war engraving. What I don’t like is the eagle/N below the serial number. Seems, the left wing (“left” from the eagle’s point of view) is grounded??? That wouldn’t be a good sign. The style of the engraving: well, could be, maybe not.

Are there remainders of rust pits present on the frame button (mag well)? If there is present something like rust pits UNDER the nickel – a bad sign also.

I’m suspicious when it comes to engraved pistols. Your’s looks good, but if the engraving was carried out before the end of the war…. I don’t know.

Regards

Martin

Last edited by sauerfan; June 17, 2009 at 08:37 AM.
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Old June 24, 2009, 08:46 PM   #10
Thalor
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Martin,

Thanks for the reply. Yes it does have the eagle/n on the slide. However, the eagle is less clear than the one under the serial number. The eagle/n stamp under the serial number is undoubtedly deeper on the (eagle's) right, and less obvious on the left (even though I can't get it to show on a picture - the whole wing is visible). The other 38 I have (S/N 284103) also has an eagle/n stamp which is more pronounced on the (eagle's) right.

Thanks.

Matt
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 305178 Slide Eagle.jpg (107.2 KB, 149 views)
File Type: jpg 305178 SN Stamp.jpg (74.8 KB, 126 views)
File Type: jpg 284103 SN.jpg (118.6 KB, 119 views)
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Old June 25, 2009, 10:38 AM   #11
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From what I read, weren't most of the presentation guns PP/PPKs and not a 38H. I don't know that I've ever even seen a pic of a 38H engraved presenation piece.
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Old June 25, 2009, 09:21 PM   #12
James K
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I gladly defer to Sauerfan as he certainly has all the facts. There seems to be a lot of misinformation published on those guns, perhaps no more than on others, but there is not a lot of solid info to counter the errors.

Thanks, Sauerfan, for providing some.

Jim
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Old July 5, 2009, 08:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Martin,

Thanks for the reply. Yes it does have the eagle/n on the slide. However, the eagle is less clear than the one under the serial number. The eagle/n stamp under the serial number is undoubtedly deeper on the (eagle's) right, and less obvious on the left (even though I can't get it to show on a picture - the whole wing is visible). The other 38 I have (S/N 284103) also has an eagle/n stamp which is more pronounced on the (eagle's) right.
Matt,

OK, all proof eagles are present, that’s a good sign. Nevertheless, I can’t make a final statement if the engraving is period or post war. At lot of GIs ordered engravings on their captured pistols - costs only were some packs of cigarettes.

Just out of curiosity: does your 284103 has eagle/C or eagle/37 acceptance or no acceptance on left trigger guard?

Quote:
From what I read, weren't most of the presentation guns PP/PPKs and not a 38H. I don't know that I've ever even seen a pic of a 38H engraved presenation piece.
Winchester73,

Well, I agree with you insofar, as I also have seen more presentation PP/PPKs than Sauers. But there are some….


Quote:
There seems to be a lot of misinformation published on those guns, perhaps no more than on others, but there is not a lot of solid info to counter the errors.
Jim,

Yes, you are right. What you can find on the internet regarding Sauers (but also regarding other pistols) is full of errors. But there is solid info available: the two volumes of Jim Cates’ book “J. P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl, Waffenstadt – a historical study on automatic pistols”. Volume I (Jim Cate / Nico van Gijn) is out of print unfortunately and only available on ebay from time to time, while volume II (Jim Cate / Martin Krause) still is for sale.

Regards

Martin
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Old August 21, 2009, 11:05 PM   #14
Thalor
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Martin,

Sorry about the delay in replying - the 284103 does not have a stamp on the trigger guard.

Matt
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Old August 24, 2009, 05:35 AM   #15
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Matt,

thanks for telling!

Regards

Martin
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