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Old March 14, 2009, 09:55 AM   #26
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I think we all have some legitimate concerns as well as some paranoia. But in this case, my personal opinion is that a little paranoia is good.

Keep a close eye on every move. Because they're not going to call up gun owners when they do sneak in some legislation to limit availability of ammo or add controls on firearms. Just like almost all unpopular legislation, it will worm it's way in.

Keep a little paranoia high, stay on high alert, investigate every rumor and any success they have will be slowed.
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Old March 14, 2009, 06:25 PM   #27
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Looks like you need an end use certificate to buy now... Meaning that you have to somehow show that you are using this domestically and not exporting it to places like Iran or Cuba.

I'd imagine that it will mean for a place that does reloading for a business that you will have to supply the license used to manufacturer ammo.

I could be wrong but I think that live ammo has been this way for many many years. Looks like just another chunk of paper work (and a pain in the butt)
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Old March 14, 2009, 09:01 PM   #28
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You need to know exactly what this regulation actually says and when it was implemented.
The DRMS Manual dated February 2009 addresses expended cartridge cases on Page 79:

DRMS-I 4160.14
Section 3 - Special Processing

Cartridge Cases (Fired Brass) - Expended

Ammunition components consisting of cartridge and shell casings are subject to the International Traffic In Arms Regulations set forth in subchapter M of 22 Code of Federal Regulations (22 CFR 120.1. et.seq). Once expended, they are processed as fired brass scrap, with precautions to avoid improper release of unexpended cases.

Policy References/Authority
DOD 4160.21-M and DOD 4160.21-M-1.

Unique Processing Information/How to Manage
Receiving: The ETID/DTID must include the appropriate DEMIL code or clear-text statement for each receipt. The turn-in must contain certification that the residue is inert. Two signatures, a certifier and a verifier are required. Opening sealed/banded containers invalidates the inert certification. DRMOs will inspect what is readily visible (open boxes and drums) to verify the absence of contaminants, such as live rounds. No other level of inspection is required.

NOTE: Not authorized for receipt from DLA Depot Recycling Control Points (RCPs).

Warehousing/Storage: Storage will be accomplished in a properly assigned DEMIL Code “A” or “B” scrap pile.

Reutilization/Transfers/Donations: GSA regional offices are authorized to approve transfer to SASPs, for donation to state and local governments, surplus expended cartridge cases (under .50 caliber) for reloading of the cartridges.

DEMIL: All expended small arms cartridge cases (50 caliber and under) are assigned DEMIL Code “E.” Expended shotgun shell cases are assigned DEMIL Code “A.” Expended artillery cases are assigned DEMIL Code “B.”

Sales: Sales in CONUS are authorized for casings 50 caliber and under (to satisfy local/reloading market/demand only). The appropriate sales method will be determined based on location, commodity condition, etc. as well as any current, unique sales/scrap processing initiatives that may be in place. End Use Certificates are required for these sales.

Abandonment/Destruction: Used if specifically directed on a case-by-case basis.

Property Accounting: DEMIL performed code “9” is authorized for casings assigned DEMIL Code “E” but no DEMIL is required. No additional unique property accounting required.
While there may have been recent changes, I could not find any notice of subsequent changes to the above.
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Old March 14, 2009, 09:50 PM   #29
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Thanks for that info, gc70.

Is this much ado about nothing, or is there actually more to this? Anyone?
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:51 PM   #30
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Is this much ado about nothing, or is there actually more to this? Anyone?
Not sure.


A Non-MLI/Non-CCLI -- Demilitarization not required.

B MLI (Non-SME) -- Demilitarization not required. Trade Security Controls required at disposition.

C MLI (SME) -- Remove and/or demilitarization installed key point(s), as prescribed in this manual, or lethal parts, components and accessories.

D MLI (SME) -- Total destruction of item and components so as to preclude restoration or repair to a usable condition by melting, cutting, tearing, scratching, crushing, breaking, punching, neutralizing, etc. (As an alternate, burial or deep water dumping may be used when approved by the DOD Demilitarization Program Office.)

E MLI -- Demilitarization instructions to be furnished by the DoD Demilitarization Program Office.
The regulations gc70 quotes say that small arms cases are to be sold, but they are held to Demil spec E and those instructions may have changed. It would not be the first time that government regulations have conflicted with one another.

If the cases were covered under code A then there would probably be nothing to worry about, but since they are under code E we need to know what the current demil instructions are, as it is entirely possible that they HAVE been changed.

So we don't have enough information to say it is happening, but we can't yet say that it isn't happening either.
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Old March 16, 2009, 12:18 PM   #31
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I think this is something we should be worried about. This will take millions of brass casings out of the system, causing ammo to go up and up. There is not a ban. The DOD is just not going to sell their millions of rounds of once fired casings that exist after training. Apparantly the DOD pulls in some serious $$ from this, so it makes no sense. It has to be something created by Obama. Why would the DOD cut their own throats and funds? See link below
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Old March 16, 2009, 02:21 PM   #32
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Yeah, it's Demil Code B, but with Integrity Code 3 now added.

More here:

Evidently, the DRMO/DRMS auctions that are currently active will require mutilation of said brass once the auction is complete, per the terms. The edict came down from DLA, ostensibly because of the recent F-14 Tomcat parts sale SNAFU.

NRA-ILA has been notified, and they're hoping to get a D0D waiver in place for .50 caliber and smaller cartridge brass over the next few weeks.

Operative word, of course, being hope.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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Old March 16, 2009, 05:38 PM   #33
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And the auctions are going again with brass NOT requiring mutilation:

I would say the issue is dead.
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Old March 16, 2009, 05:43 PM   #34
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Take the time to listen to this.

What you'll want to listen to is about 12:30 minutes into the broadcast...if you want to fast forward to that point.

Like I said in my earlier post, we can talk about this issue here...which is fine.

But, everyone needs to contact their senators & representatives.

Last edited by USASA; March 16, 2009 at 06:03 PM.
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Old March 16, 2009, 06:19 PM   #35
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Here is another link to check out:
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Old March 16, 2009, 06:57 PM   #36
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Is this on or off. The DRMO at my post says it's on. Some people are posting links to auctions that don't have the destruction notice. Who has the latest info? Are the auction links just not updated? Has the NRA said anything?
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Old March 16, 2009, 07:30 PM   #37
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I took the time last Friday to write both Government Liquidations LLC and the DLA Public Affairs Office to see if this was for real or a hoax. I haven't heard back from the DLA but I did hear back from Government Liquidations. Here is what they said in response to my email:

Dear Mr. Rxxxxxx,

Thank you for your e-mail. This is correct. Recently it has been determined that fired munitions of all calibers, shapes and sizes have been designated to be Demil code B. As a result and in conjunction with DLA's current Demil code B policy, this notice will serve as official notification which requires Scrap Venture (SV) to implement mutilation as a condition of sale for all sales of fired munitions effective immediately. This notice also requires SV to immediately cease delivery of any fired munitions that have been recently sold or on active term contracts, unless the material has been mutilated prior to sale or SV personnel can attest to the mutilation after delivery. A certificate of destruction is required in either case.


Customer Service Management

Government Liquidation, LLC

DOD Surplus, LLC

15051 N. Kierland Blvd, Ste 300

Scottsdale, AZ 85254

Ph: 480.367.1300

Fax: 480.367.1450

Email: [email protected]

Online Help:



From: John Rxxxxx [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:20 PM
To: GL Info
Subject: Demil Code B policy for cartridge brass

Dear Sirs,

I received the following email purported to be from you that said all expended munition cartridge brass must be mutilated. See the email below. Is this correct or not? Does it extend to items like 9mm or 5.56x45 cartridge brass?

John Rxxxxx
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Old March 16, 2009, 07:34 PM   #38
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I guess things are going to get even more scarce and expensive.
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Old March 16, 2009, 07:47 PM   #39
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This bs has me thinking... And yes I wrote my congressman... Could the reasoning for this follow two goals...

A. Take our brass away
B. Possibly make more money selling it as scrap?

To justify option B.. Has anyone seen what prices scrap brass is bringing in? I mean its so high here that people are stealing everything made with brass and copper... Even the nuts off the fire hydrants.. A local little league field had all of the copper wiring stolen recently...
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Old March 16, 2009, 08:02 PM   #40
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There is no way that unworked scrap can fetch the same prices a the cases.
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Old March 16, 2009, 08:12 PM   #41
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Scrap, mutilated brass goes for around $0.60 a pound (maybe less). Reloadable brass goes for around $2 a pound.
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Old March 16, 2009, 08:21 PM   #42
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Why in the name of Sam Hill isn't there ANYTHING on the NRA or NRA-ILA's site about this? True or not, this is THE topic du jour on every gun board I follow and it's more than a little disconcerting to have a black hole of silence from the NRA. The least they could do is say it's not true, if it's not. Is JFPFO more on the ball than the NRA?
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Old March 16, 2009, 08:33 PM   #43
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I suspect the NRA is putting together iron clad research to nail down exactly what is going on before it pontificates.

The NRA has a reputation to maintain. It will speak sooner or later.
"Given a choice between good intentions and human nature, I'll go with human nature every time."--Me, 2002.
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Old March 16, 2009, 09:27 PM   #44
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I suspect the NRA is putting together iron clad research to nail down exactly what is going on before it pontificates.

Good point. The NRA got bit hard when it jumped the gun on the proposed BATFE regulation that SAAMI and the Explosive Makers asked for. When the regulation came out for review SAAMI went berserk. Some inexperienced folks at the NRA-ILA took the word of SAAMI as gospel and cried "the sky is falling."

The NRA found out that SAAMI did ask for the new BATFE regulation after all. The NRA-ILA came across as an amateur run outfit.
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Old March 17, 2009, 06:03 AM   #45
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From a member of another forum:

"I called the NRA-ILA (INSTITUTE FOR LEGISLATIVE ACTION). I spoke with a guy named Eric and he put me on hold for a few minutes till he could get the latest info on this subject.

After returning to the phone he gave me a bunch of info. The NRA is definitely aware of the problem and have heard from some reloaded ammo companies and individuals. Eric rattled off all the DOD agencies invlolved and apparently this may have been "somewhat of a mistake" The ranking DOD agency has heard our concerns and condsiders them VALID!!

Right now, the word is from DOD to the NRA that they hope to have a WAIVER put into place within a two or three weeks which will CORRECT this situation and return once fired brass, .50 caliber and below to the sales policies previously used!!!

Eric said it might be helpful to call our Congressmen just in case and make them aware of the impact on the DOD budget, police training, and inidividual rights."

Last edited by USASA; March 17, 2009 at 06:13 AM.
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Old March 17, 2009, 10:28 AM   #46
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I hope that the above post shows what I think it does.

I tend to wax pessimistic; I believe that this was an end run by someone from our current administration in DC. Someone said, "Hey--if we start out with this, we can eliminate a large source of ammo--and we don't have to draw up a new law to do it. We'll show those dried up gun owners!"

They then went and changed the demil code, rubbing their hands in glee and thinking that all was well.

They did NOT expect to rouse the sleeping giant--the wrath of the American people.

It would be like turning around and seeing (for instance) a HUGE eagle staring at you with the expression that says, "Bad move, fellas. REALLY bad move."

The ones who changed the demil code are now probably pooping in their pants because of the uproar.

Keep up the fire!
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:33 PM   #47
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This was posted by an individual on at least two other gun forums:

Possible breaking news:

You might want to consider this as breaking news...

I don't post a lot around here and most of you have no idea who I am. Fact is, I'm an IT guy. A regular, run-of-the-mill computer jockey. But I happen to work for DOD Surplus/Government Liquidation. I've been told by my CEO that as of this morning the requirement to mutilate expended brass has been lift by virtue of a reclassification from Demil B to Demil Q. This applies to all calibers .50 and under. I'm still trying to get confirmation that .50 cal is included in the "safe to sell" list, or whether mutilation is still required.

I'm busy at work right now, but I will try to post back with more detail and updates when I get the chance.


posted today 12:12 Central time
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Old March 17, 2009, 10:01 PM   #48
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The order was reversed.

Dear MSSA Friends,

I just received a phone call from the office of U.S. Senator Tester of Montana to inform me that at 5:15 (EST) today a letter cosigned by Senator Tester (D-MT) and Senator Baucus (D-MT) was faxed to the Department of Defense asking DoD to reverse its new policy requiring destruction of fired military cartridge brass. At 5:30, I am told, Tester's office received a fax back from DoD saying that the brass destruction policy IS reversed.

Others report to me that they are already seeing evidence of this on the Websites of entities that liquidate surplus DoD commodities.

Our thanks go out to Senator Tester and Senator Baucus, and their staff, for getting on this problem promptly and making the reversal happen

Staff for Tester and Baucus promise they will get me the documentation for this reversal tomorrow morning. I'll forward that when I get it.

Best wishes,

Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
author, Gun Laws of Montana
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Old March 18, 2009, 12:33 AM   #49
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With A/C Guys post, we will close this thread and direct all traffic to this thread.
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