The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 3, 2009, 01:40 PM   #1
Senior Member
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,566
OUCH, . . . swat team in your back yard

There was a story on Yahoo news the other day about a new game some folks are playing on their computers.

Apparently, there is a way that someone can call a bogus 911 call onto YOUR place, . . . and send the stormtroopers, . . . and YOU can become the innocent victim.

I only post this to bring up again the importance of having a plan, . . . a backup plan, . . . and really considering the idea of just crouching in the safe room and making the bg come to you.

I cringe every time I read this, . . . how easily he could have done something to precipitate an "accidental but fatal" police shooting.

May God bless,
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 01:49 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Western Colorado, finally.
Posts: 19,118
Holy Smoke! Talk about your rude awakening!
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 01:59 PM   #3
Senior Member
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Posts: 496
holy hell id be upset!
freakintoguns is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 07:51 PM   #4
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 7,478
Moderator Note

Guys, because I think this can stay on topic and become a worthwhile discussion, I'm leaving this one open. But here's the deal: posts in this thread MUST stay on topic!

Here's the topic of the thread:
I only post this to bring up again the importance of having a plan, . . . a backup plan, . . . and really considering the idea of just crouching in the safe room and making the bg come to you.
As long as we continue to discuss how to formulate sensible home defense plans, the thread will stay open. In short, the forum is for Tactics & Training discussions. No room here for political or quasi-political rants.

If the thread veers into useless and off-topic rants, and it'll get closed post-haste.


Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 07:59 PM   #5
Senior Member
Join Date: January 3, 2009
Location: Bismark
Posts: 332
What a Moron

Jason Trowbridge, one of the defendants currently serving a five-year sentence, told the AP "Nobody ever thought anyone would get hurt or die from a SWAT call,"

Since i'm not a ruthless killer or a "meth salesman" I'm pretty sure that if i see a flashlight coming through my window at midnight i'm gonna grab my USP and push my Girlfriend behind the bed and wait readily for the intruder to leave or break in... While she calls 911. How do you think SWAT would react when they get into my room and i'm pointing a gun at them? I'd shoot me too, were I them.

I suppose your best bet is to make sure to call 911 asap (which should always be the case.) and inform the dispatch that you're armed (if you are of course) and that you don't know what's happening. But i'm excited to see what some other ideas might be, I love these threads, I always learn something.

Last edited by jesus5150; February 3, 2009 at 08:08 PM.
jesus5150 is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 08:54 PM   #6
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
I guess I am too naive to have thunk this was a possibility... Gonna have to re-think the whole world over this!
hogdogs is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 11:49 PM   #7
Senior Member
Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: Nashville, Tn.
Posts: 683
I went to bed one night, and awoke to nearly the same scene. (on first reading)

The house was bright from the helicopter flood lights and an officer was looking in my garage. His dog was doing a search as the officer checked shadows with his light.

Seems there was a robbery and the BGs bailed / abandoned the car half a block away.

I know...different from being the direct focus of the swat team...but close enough to see the need for a series of plans...( A)...(B)...(C-H maybe) !

I agree that the safe room/call 911 and communicate is the way to go. Last thing I want to do is GET SHOT! messes up the whole week.

...even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.
Hardtarget is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 01:14 AM   #8
Junior member
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 5,866
S grabs vest, Mosin Nagant 44, fixes bayonet, grabs .475 and .500 Max for backup, and, 30-06 as well, heads into isolated bathroom, with one entry, and no windows, wishes it had an iron, or cast steel bathtub, and grabs cell phone. Hits retired SWAT officers phone number, and, ask him to PLEASE call his students off....
Socrates is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 11:07 AM   #9
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: In the oak studded hills near Napa
Posts: 2,203
I only post this to bring up again the importance of having a plan, . . . a backup plan, . . . and really considering the idea of just crouching in the safe room and making the bg come to you.
That and calling 911 sounds better than wandering out into the yard with a knife or gun in your hand. As a young man, I was at a house that was paid a visit by the local SWAT team. Fortunately, none of us were armed and were just standing around in the back yard. The team just seemed to appear.... everywhere at once . On the roof of the house and the detached garage behind it, through the two gates and a few came over the fences.... surrounded, slammed to the ground and cuffed before we had a clue what was going on. Scary business!
grymster2007 is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 11:19 AM   #10
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 96
what a very ugly thought...bad guy pulls same prank cross referenced with local CCW list culled from liberal newpaper publishing names and addresses.

honestly i doubt id have the time/thought to call 911 if someone busts thru my front door. if i heard them first or saw the black helo with lights, i might have time...but a door going down is a call to action in my head. since im a good guy and do NOT expect the local swat guys...i would have to assume a home invasion.

even with 3 guys yelling 'police!' or 'warrant!' or'd be a pucker factor 7 mr sulu in any case.

i guess id hope that the time it took them to announce and enter would give me time to assess the situation...and give them time to assess as well.

Depending on the "reason" they are assuming is necessary for a dynamic entry..hostage or whatever...and entering my house with its lazy border collie and kids toys in the corner would set off at least a question in the swat teams mind...

they dont just roll thru the neighborhood and storm into sure there would be some recon and surveillance...maybe a phone call or whatever before someone decided its necessary to kick the door...
Observe. Overreact. Destroy. Apologize.
anythingshiny is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 12:39 PM   #11
Rich Miranda
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2008
Location: San Antonio, not San Antone...
Posts: 1,203
The truly scary thing about such a scenario is that people like us, those who are ready to stand up and defend ourselves, are the most likely to get killed by the police!

It makes me really reconsider my approach to home defense. Back to the drawing board!
Read this!: I collect .38 Special and .357 Mag cartridges and I will PAY CASH for the headstamps I don't already have! Please PM me.
Please donate blood, plasma, and platelets - people's lives literally depend on it.
Rich Miranda is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 11:42 PM   #12
Senior Member
Join Date: November 10, 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,304
This is where situational awareness is key. If I wake up and lights and sirens and helicopters are surrounding my house, I'm going to place myself within arms reach of my HD gun, in case there is a BG already in my house. I'm not going to touch the gun until I know someone is in my house and that person has not announced themselves as a LEO.

It's scary, but you have to keep your SA up. Any of us that have firearms for SD/HD can make mistakes that will get us shot. Be smart. Realize that when the LEO's show up, all they see is a guy with a gun. They don't know who you are. We don't have signs around our necks that read "Good Guy" or "Bad Guy" so LEO's are going to assume that anyone and everyone is the BG.

Long before the internet and caller ID hackers, cops have responded to the wrong address and such.

As soon as LEO's are on scene, your role as the armed citizen is over. Disarm yourself quickly and in a completely non threatening manner and always follow their instructions exactly. When everyone has a gun drawn is not the time to try and figure out who the BG is. That can easily be taken care of later.
A hit with a .45 ACP beats a hit with a .22 LR everytime. A hit with a .22 LR beats a miss with a .50 BMG everytime.
scorpion_tyr is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 09:17 AM   #13
Senior Member
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 10,980
We came home from the grocery store on a summer weekday about 11:30 am to find police scattered all over our yard and the surrounding yards, shotguns out. Actually, some friends of ours were passing through the area and decided to stop by and they ran in to the scene first, then called us. We were at the checkout line with the groceries when he told us of the situation, so we came home.

We live on a court and couldn't drive the full way down our street, so I rolled down the window and spoke to the first officer I could find. They told me that they chased a bank robber toward our development and lost him, then found his getaway car parked in my next door neighbor's driveway.

They had dogs on the scene and were picking up a scent leading away from the scene. One of the officers noted that I had a pretty upset and barking dog in my house and he told me that it was a good bet that my dog helped to make up this guy's mind not to enter my house.

He told me they searched all around my house and saw no signs of entry, but that they did not enter my house.

Then he told me that they did not plan to enter my house and clear it, so he suggested that I leave my family in the car and clear my own house!

I wasn't really sure about whether or not they'd be willing to assist me or do it for me if I asked, but I figured what the hell, I'd go ahead and do it. So I unlocked the door, looked around and went directly to my safe. My dog was acting predictably, exactly the way she does when someone is outside of our house. I relied heavily upon the dog and her actions/attitude that it was prudent for me to go to the safe and arm myself. (this was before I had my carry permit) I took my 12 gauge and loaded it, took a flashlight, and cleared my house 100%.

Then I put the shotgun back in the safe and went outside and told the officers that we didn't have anyone in there and no signs of trouble, nothing out of the ordinary. They let me drive the car in to our driveway and let our friends in, and they continued their search.

There was at least a couple of officers on the scene for about the next three hours. At one point about 90 minutes after we arrived, we had a knock at the door and one officer told us that they caught him about 2 miles away, on foot. They had the car torn apart with a lot of stuff piled in the neighbor's driveway.

Hope I'm not drifting the thread too much, just didn't think my little story warranted it's own thread. I found all the officers to be professional and calm, but I was kind of surprised that when I arrived, they didn't ask nor want to enter my house first, or hell, at all. Perhaps it was because they already had the dogs on a scent, I don't know, but they didn't seem to think that there would be anyone in my house.
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 09:54 AM   #14
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 7,478
Removed a couple of off topic rants.

Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 08:52 PM   #15
Senior Member
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 791
You know, a situation like this came up in the CC class I was in. The topic was No-Knock-Warrents. He said that they serve no knocks all the time and are a very useful tool in the aprehension of criminals. I agree, but the question that he didn't answer was...

During a no knock, do the LE officers entering always announce who they are? And how liable would a person be if it were found out to be the wrong house and an officer were to be injured?
When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.
- Thomas Jefferson
wpcexpert is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 09:07 PM   #16
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,295
During a no knock, do the LE officers entering always announce who they are? And how liable would a person be if it were found out to be the wrong house and an officer were to be injured?
If you shoot a cop, even if it was justified, 99% of the time you are screwed. If the cop shoots you by mistake, you shouldn't have been there (even if it's your own home.) In other words, you can't win. HTH
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 09:50 PM   #17
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2008
Posts: 127
Having served my share of warrants, I can tell you that, in Florida at least, there is no such thing as a "No knock warrant". The knock and announce as we call it is always the cause for any suppression hearings...did you wait long enough, what time was it, what were the conditions, what kind of violation were you serving the warrant for.

The only time we have ever entered a house without knocking is when we get compromised on the approach. The doper looks out the window and is like "oh [email protected]#t, the cops" and ducks back knock required. They know we're there and are apparently no willing to let us in.

If I was to attempt to put a no knock clause in a warrant, the SAO would not approve it and even if they did, none of our judges would sign it. We err on the side of caution. There is no established wait time in Florida (the law says a "reasonable" time) well, that depends on the situation. An indoor marijuana grow with no violent suspects...I'll give you a while. It's not like you can flush a bunch of plants. A robbery warant on a bunch of armed gang bangers...not much wait at all (if any). Reasonable is a suitably vague legal term but I would rather have that then be told that I have to wait at least a minute (or longer) no matter what...lots a bad can happen in a minute

As far as them not offering or wanting to search your house, if there were no signs of forced entry and no K-9's were sniffing around an entry point, I can see why. Had there been an open window to your house or other signs that someone may have covertly entered, they more then likely would have searched it prior to your arrival or at least put a perimeter around it and had dispatch attempt to get contact numbers for the property owner to get permission and determine if any legitimate persons were inside but in an exigent circumstance, they would have gone in. I've done it in the past. We'll announce "Police" to hell and gone as we come in (just like on a search warrant). I don't want to get shot by accident by a homeowner and don't really want to shoot a good guy who just happens to get surprised when I come around the corner

They probably would have cleared your hosue if you had asked them to but you may have had to wait. My bet is they were on an assigned perimeter and really couldn't leave a post for something that was basically a non emergency. You did the right thing and appear to have done it well
mskdgunman is offline  
Old February 6, 2009, 03:59 AM   #18
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2008
Location: the object towards which the action of the sea is directed
Posts: 2,123
First the SWAT team would have to get by the bedded down moose behind my house. That would almost certainly alert the dogs, and me too. With the SWAT members either shooting moose, or getting the tar stomped out of them by the moose (really - don't get between a mama moose and her babies!), would give me some time to dial 911 and find out what was going on.

In all seriousness, I would hope to never have a SWAT team breech my house. I would think that the dogs would give ample warning before a breech, but never hope to have to deal with this kind of conflict.

This is one reason that I believe in a verbal challenge from a "bunkered" position when considering HD scenarios. If you yell out, "Stop! I have already called 911/the police!" before they enter your room, that may play out differently than if you wait for a door to begin opening and then start letting the lead fly.
The lowest paid college major/degree in this country after graduation...
Elementary Education.

Now, go figure...
AZAK is offline  
Old February 6, 2009, 04:17 AM   #19
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,083
Years ago, our local sherrif's dept. was known for doing drug busts at the wrong address. I lived in a duplex. My neighbor was a biker/drug dealer. I moved. Landlord tried to tell me I had a contract. I told him that I had complained about the neighbor and nothing was done-so he breached the contract and to sue me.
The SD was just breaking down doors and entering. I was afraid that I would shoot one of them, and in return, be bullet riddled.
Bad situation to be in.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old February 8, 2009, 01:02 AM   #20
G-man 26
Senior Member
Join Date: November 30, 2008
Location: southern, CA
Posts: 212
Man am I glad to have this info. Had no clue they could do this. I will have my wife keep the cordless on the night stand from now on. Good idea to call and confirm if the swat team is just out side. Or any officer for that matter. We have had home robberies where the BG's were identifying themselves as police to gain entry. I think that is over though, the real cops came down on that like a bag of bricks.
"When one man speaks to another man who doesn't understand him, and when the man who's speaking no longer understands, it's metaphysics." Voltaire
G-man 26 is offline  
Old February 8, 2009, 08:25 AM   #21
Senior Member
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 534
During a no knock, do the LE officers entering always announce who they are? And how liable would a person be if it were found out to be the wrong house and an officer were to be injured?
Try google and "Ryan Frederick" for a fairly recent event. Conflicting information has been going back and forth about it, especially regarding whether the police announced themselves and whether Frederick understood what was going on since he had been asleep. More info. came out that the police didn't have any substantial evidence against Frederick prior to the raid, making the raid even more suspicious. I don't really support either side, as it seems both parties made bad decisions at one point or another.

All of it is scary stuff if you ask me. Cops have to do their job, and armed citizens feel the need to defend themselves. Too many variables can throw a big pile of poo on everyone's day.
---Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.---

---Enlightenment is the ability to take infinite pains---
12GaugeShuggoth is offline  
Old February 8, 2009, 07:33 PM   #22
Senior Member
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479

To sum up the bad guy's assertions:

The bad guy's argument is that the CI stole his MJ plants, and in doing so committed a crime, and in doing so nullified the warrant's legitimacy. Being wary of having his MJ grow burglarized, he was quick to respond to people at his door presumably to force entry; people he did not, of course, realize were the police. He fired twice through the door.

"“In reality, the informer did not 'observe’ marijuana plants, he stole them,” Broccoletti argued..." Broccoletti is the bad guy's lawyer, and the burglary of the MJ grow is pivotal to the defense he is mounting. That the CI committed the burglary and that the police knew that are his assertions.

A veritable poster child. At best, he's an admitted grower, and presumed user, who shot through twice through a door at a group of police serving a knock warrant, killing one. At best...

But that's a drift.


Back on target:

How many documented instances of people using computers to send police to the wrong address are there? Of those, how many warrants have been served, or exigent circumstances exceptions to the warrant requirement made? How many people have been injured or killed? I'd like to know, if anyone happens to know.
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

Last edited by Erik; February 8, 2009 at 07:46 PM.
Erik is offline  
Old February 8, 2009, 07:53 PM   #23
Senior Member
Join Date: November 18, 2004
Posts: 1,446
Lots of loopholes throughout the entire scenario. Both sides.

No Knocks are getting cops killed, and yet they continue to use them. No knocks are costing lots of cities big money, but they are allowing them. No knocks have killed a few innocent civilians, and that means right there they have to stop. PERIOD. end of discussion. In America, we do not allow the Law to kill innocent Citizens. As soon as we say well its just a few, we have broken the Code of Honor that the Constitution was written to protect.

Frankly, at my house, with my door, dogs and situation, they would lose badly.

Its a pretty simple concept, Police are NEVER allowed to kill Citizens who have not committed a crime.

if we want to stop this stuff, do this, its very simple

If a Cop messes up. or a bunch of cops mess up. ALL DAMAGES are paid out by the individual. retirements, 401K's etc are cashed out when they break the law. If that does not supply the required money, then overtime and payraise money is tapped for the whole department.

Making tax payers pay for bad cops only rewards the cops. hurt the bad cops in the pay envelope. Take away retirement benies to pay judgements. All of a sudden cops have to operate under the same rules as anyone else, your actions will hurt you in the wallet. If you screw up bad enough,and brother officers lose pay raises and overtime because of you, they will tell you to find another line of work. Its called cleaning from the inside out. It works well.
guntotin_fool is offline  
Old February 8, 2009, 08:09 PM   #24
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,203
This is not a good situation at all. The cops think you're tha bad guy and will shoot you if you resist. You get a rude awakening and assume the worst and arm yourself. I wish they could require a call back directly to the house for suspicious calls rather than simply sending in the SWAT Team.

There have been home invasions where the criminals dressed up as police and forced their way inside the home. I hate to sound naive, but if someone busts down my door and yells police, I throw my hands up and surrender. I'm not going to hold them at gun point while I ask for ID. I'm not a criminal and I live in a good area, but mistakes do happen. I'm not ready to take the chance and accidentally shoot an officer, and likely to be gunned down myself (if they send in a team).

Basically, if I see a bunch of flashing lights and people with police emblazoned across their vests, I will walk out with my hands up and let them sort out whatever mistake they have made. Doing anything else is likely to be suicide.
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old February 8, 2009, 08:39 PM   #25
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2008
Posts: 127
As far as dogs are concerned, EVERY dog I have ever seen present during a search warrant has turned tail and run. No matter what the breed or how bad a dog. ten or more guys, flash bangs, loud, aggressive movement..I've yet to see a dog hang around. Thats not to say I won't see the one that will tomorrow but, thats what Tasers and pepper spray are for. We usually find them hiding in a back room or under a car in the yard. They may bark, which is sometimes all a BG needs to set up an ambush, but actively attack...I personally have never seen it although there have been a couple close calls with "fear biters".

As far as cops hitting the wrong residences, it unfortuantely does happen. I personally don't understand how but it does. When I write a warrant, I'm painfully accurate as to where my target is to include ground photos (air photos also if possible) and landmarks. I also make sure that the otehr members of the unit all know what the place looks like daytime or night time.

If I know my target is heavily armed or inclined to resist, the last place I want to take you on is your house which is home turf. If I think a target is bad enough, I'll try and take him a different way and then hit the house...everybody has to go to the store or to work or someplace eventually. It's just a matter of planning...and some luck.

I think the best way not to get shot either by accident or on purpose, is to comply immediately and work things out once the smoke clears. When the guys come in the door, they're probably not going to give up the momentum because someone shouts that they're calling the police. For all we know, they're loading magazines and trying to buy time
mskdgunman is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:13 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.24355 seconds with 7 queries