info on the remington 870 needed please

[lej]

Few of the guys and i were having a discussion about the remington 870 shotgun today . The subject of the weapons safety catch came up and a point was raised that the 870 "due to having a floating firing pin" can discharge if dropped barrel down even if the safety is engaged. Did a quick search of the net and couldnt come up with anything so im throwing it out there.. Any idea's..

[armsmaster270]

The safety has nothing to do with the firing pin it only blocks the trigger from being pulled. As to the drop test I don't know if that will cause an AD

[Scattergun Bob]

Beyond the 870, all of the major brands of scatterguns have safeties that simply lock the trigger, the hammer and firing pin are "free". So to answer your question yes there is a potential for ALL scatterguns to fire if dropped. If you attend hunter ed this point is addressed when crossing a fence line with your hunting gun.

AND I seem to be constantly trying to convince the HD and Defensive crowd to carry their scatterguns in the "cruiser ready" condition of readiness to prevent just such a mishap.

Good Luck & Be Safe

[Lee Lapin]

The 870 has an inertial firing pin, which means that the length of a properly installed firing pin is actually shorter than the length of the bolt body. The force of the hammer blow drives the firing pin forward far enough into the bolt body so that it protrudes from the bolt body enough to strike the primer and fire a chambered round.

The bolt design for the 870 offers a couple of other safety features as well- there is an interruptor built in to the locking lug that keeps the firing pin retracted until the bolt is locked in place, and the same feature retracts the firing pin in case it is stuck forward as the bolt opens. There is a firing pin retractor spring installed as well, so the firing pin is spring loaded to the rear- it isn't technically free floating, since there's a spring there.

But none of these things restrain the hammer when the safety is on, and none of them fully restrain the firing pin when the safety is on either. Any application of energy to the muzzle sufficient to duplicate the force of the blow of the hammer on the firing pin will in fact fire the gun if there is a shell in the chamber.

Best keep 'em cruiser ready until battle stations gets called... as was said above, this goes for ALL common pump shotguns.

hth,

lpl

[lej]

thanks heaps guys

[lej]

just out of interest could the same be said for the ar15/m16 design?,

[RetiredMajor]

Scattergun Bob, what's the "cruiser ready" condition? Please elaborate.

Major

[armsmaster270]

I always kept mine empty chamber hammer down so you didn't have to hit the action release button.

[Scattergun Bob]

Major,

First before I explain cruiser ready might as well take the time to review my earlier rant about safe handling of fighting scatterguns;

Some of you STILL assert that you store your scatterguns in condition 1 a shell in the chamber, what can I do to convince you that this is folly. Every year we have injury and death due to scatterguns firing due to bumps, jars, or drops. This is not conjecture this is fact supported by hunting accident stats. Scattergun Bob says, any shotgun that has a safety that does not lock the sear needs to have an empty chamber BEFORE it leaves you hands. Trust that the folks who came up with "cruiser ready" did so because of blood on the ground and holes in police cruisers. To long term store your scattergun in condition 1 is unsafe and in my option unprofessional.

Major, I believe and teach that fighting scatterguns are all about "conditions of readiness" and "operating the action" terms that describe for me the idea of "making the gun GO". Most everything else that hunters and field sports folks find important in their fields are of little importance to fighting with a shotgun. I would consider patterning as an exception to the discussion.

Cruiser Ready is a condition of readiness that allows us to quickly bring our scattergun into condition one (ready to fire) and still maintain a good margin of safety.

Curiser Ready= rounds in the magazine, perhaps even on the carrier, bolt closed on a empty chamber, hammer down, safety ON. To get to condition one is simply a pump of the action and a push on the safety. There are some folks that leave the hammer cocked, I am ok with that.

Sorry for taking the long way round the barn, but it is an important point for me.

Good Luck & Be Safe

[nemoaz]

It's funny that most of you would PAY to have instruction from a professional like SGB, yet won't listen to him when he gives you advice for free

Cruiser ready is THE LEO standard. I'll bet there is a reason for that.

[RetiredMajor]

Scattergun Bob, thanks for the explanation and education. Cruiser Ready sounds like a comfortable condition for me. And, as you point out, since the safety on my Rem 870 doesn't lock the sear, an accidental or negligent discharge is a possiblitly with one in the chamber.

Got it! And, the good news is....I am trainable!

Regards,
Major

[Scattergun Bob]

My Pleasure

Till next time, Bob

Scattergun Bob says, "they come out of the factory box simple, near perfect and ready to GO, you just have to learn how to press that GO BUTTON."

[Lee Lapin]

nemoaz,

Actually I doubt most people here would ever pay for training from a professional. I'd venture to say that most won't even take what training they can get for free. Many won't bother to take good advice, earned from long experience, that is often offered here.

Sad thing, that. Like the song says- "When will they ever learn... "

lpl

[USMCGrunt]

Hey SGB, just for clarification, did I read that correctly in that you keep the safety in the "SAFE" position? Not critical of the method that but it's a little different than what we were trained in the Marines way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. We were taught to keep the magazine full, chamber empty, hammer down and the weapon on "FIRE". Back then in the days before "tactical" slings we would carry our Mossbergs upside down on our weak shoulder using what's called the "African Carry" (although I don't think anybody uses that term anymore since it's not "PC" or some such crap like that ) and when needed would roll the shotgun off our shoulder, up to a firing position, rack the pump and you were ready to fire. Then again, these were the same people that taught us to keep an M9 with a full magazine, round in the chamber, hammer down and the safety down in the "SAFE" position rather than in the more common "FIRE" position that most everybody else does.

[Nnobby45]

The problem with the 870 isn't the inertia firing pin.

The reason it isn't drop safe is because the safety only blocks the trigger from being pulled, as already mentioned. There's nothing to prevent the hammer and sear from disengaging, if dropped hard enough, and discharging the shotgun. The engagement on the 870, however, isn't "normally" prone to discharge when the gun is dropped.

I'm not a Mossberg man, but it's my understanding that the tang safety, when engaged, actually has a cross bolt that prevents the hammer from falling, as mentioned in Bob's post.

That would make the shotgun drop safe to that degree. Don't know of any instance of a shotgun discharging from firing pin inertia while the hammer and sear were still engaged.

Different departments have a different definition of "Cruiser ready". Hammer down on empty chamber, safety off. OR with safety on. Both meet some definitions. I was taught safety off--rack and shoot.

Once the shotgun is racked, and not fired immediately, some officers use the safety. Others use safety off, FINGER OFF TRIGGER. I've heard LE folks describe doing it both ways. They didn't really mention how their Departments felt about the matter.

For safety reasons, when the shot gun is kept in a home with small children, some advocate empty chamber, bolt locked (cocked) safety on. This requires the shotgun's action bar release lever be operated in addition to the safety being release, as well as racking the shotgun.

This can also make the shotgun's operation proprietary to the intended user and not so much for the criminal who may gain access.

[Scattergun Bob]

Hi buddy, hope all is quiet in your sector!

I was waiting for some one to ask for clarification on the safety thing!!! Glad it was you.

So, here is the deal, most folks carry the gun cruiser ready with the safety off. It's fast and works fine right up to the moment of that one time "for some reason, don't know how that happened, never happened before, I didn't do that" the SAFETY is magically engaged. So there you are mashing on the trigger and nothing is happening , God is merciful so most times besides a little embarrassment and cranky ol' Bob yelling at you nothing bad happens.

So, I teach that you always use the safety , you mash (verify) the safety FIRST and then MASH the trigger second, EVERY TIME. Honest it don't cost you much, if any time, the good news is it Keeps ol' Bob from yelling at ya, and MIGHT just save a life.

we would carry our Mossbergs upside down on our weak shoulder using what's called the "African Carry

Besides a 3 point tactical setup or a bungee, IS there any other way to sling a scattergun that makes sense, I've been using and teaching this carry method since Louie Awerbuck taught it to us way back in the 1970s.

Do that answere it for you?

My Best to you, Bob

[USMCGrunt]

Yup, things here have been pretty quiet. Not sure if Haji is a warm-weather only fighter or if we've been putting the hurt on them as of late but in any case, I'll take either one! LOL
I never thought about the problems of a safety button getting bumped on but that does make sense though. You do get used to doing one drill one way and if things do go wrong with the safety accidently getting bumped onto safe, it's nothing that you haven't already been trained to turn off anyways. Excellent point and one I think I'm going to start using in the future!
As far as slings go, I've tried the 3-point slings and never found they work that well in general and on shotguns in particular. It's that extra strap that finds itself getting in the way at every inopertune time is why I stick to the 2-point variety for my needs. As far as single point slings go, one of our "tacti-kewl" troops here found out why I call them a "nad-knocker" when he was doing a transition drill. Let go of his M-4 to draw his M9 and managed to hit himself squarely in the junk with the barrel. Nah, I'll stick with 2-points slings.
From one instructor to another though, might want to switch to decaf. I used to growl at the shooters with their hands in the air but these days I generally calmly wallk over and tell them, "your safety is on" then turn around and walk away. Don't get me wrong, I love this job but being an insturctor for the military is what I would equate to being a high-school teacher rather than a college professor. The folks we get here may enjoy it and like coming to the range or maybe not and are there because they are ordered to so I compare them to high school students. Students that are willing to pay out of their own pocket for additional training are there because they want to be there, learn something and are willing to pay for that knowledge in the same way a college student is willing to pay for classes. Having been a paying student of shooting classes on my own dime, I can tell say that when you are footing the bill, you are a lot more receptive to any additional tips or instructions!
I'm glad you took the time to clarify your veiws on the safety button being used for cruiser carry. That cleared up my question perfectly. Thanks again.

[bottom rung]

Excellent questions and answers! Such information laid out in a clear, decent, and safety minded manner truly makes this forum worth every minute of my time that should be spent doing something else. To all those who participated in this thread, thank you. I can only read so much of the foolishness that many are bent on proliferating. A thread with such useful information is truly refreshing. Thanks guys, Steve.