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Old December 20, 2008, 10:27 PM   #1
natjohnb
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Anyone else get rid of a CCW after 1 malf?

I decided to give Kel-tec a try and have been happily carrying a Pf9 the last couple of months...

No problems through the first couple hundred rounds...until today

I was at the range, putting a mag of carry ammo through each of my carry guns, when the Kel-tec choked on the last round in the mag.(fail-to-feed, looks like it caught on the feed ramp)

I was using Hornady TAP 9mm+p 124gr

IMO, a carry gun should never fail, especially on premium defense ammo. I don't want to mess around with it trying to make it reliable, I think I wanna get rid of it.

Guess I'll have to go to the gun show tomorrow and look for a Glock 26 :barf:
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Old December 20, 2008, 10:32 PM   #2
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If I refused to carry a gun after 1 malfunction, then I'd never have a gun to carry!

If the thing can go a few hundred rounds of various ammo without a malfunction, then it's good enough IMO. But, after awhile you're going to encounter a situation that chokes the gun somehow. Doesn't matter what brand, caliber, size, or whatnot. It might be user induced, ammo induced, or gun induced.

If it doesn't like the ammo then use something different, or figure out why the gun doesn't like it and fix the problem. It may be that OAL, profile, powder charge, etc. are just out of range of what the designers expected, or the ammo was actually made out of spec.
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Old December 20, 2008, 10:38 PM   #3
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Your going to be buying a lot of guns. Even the glocks jam now and then. Revolvers have trouble to . If made by man it will break or malfunction at some time.
might have been the ammo DON'T ALWAYS BLAME THE PISTOL
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Old December 20, 2008, 10:48 PM   #4
redlevel42
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If I refused to carry a gun after 1 malfunction, then I'd never have a gun to carry!

I have a safe full of S&W revolvers, some of which I have put thousands of rounds through, with nary a malfunction.

I'm not saying I've never had a malfunction in a Smith, just that I have a bunch of them that I have never had a malfunction in.

I'm not sure you meant to say what you did. It reads like you've had at least one malfunction in all your carry guns.
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Old December 20, 2008, 10:52 PM   #5
natjohnb
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Well, I guess I'm lucky and I have high expectations of my carry guns...

I've owned about a dozen different auto-loaders in as many years; only two others EVER malf'ed at all, one was a S&W M&P compact that had user-induced FTF (thumb engaged mag release constantly), the other was a Glock 22 that would malf due to a bad magazine spring.

This Kel-tec is the first one I've had that has FTF for no apparent reason.
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Old December 20, 2008, 11:19 PM   #6
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If I refused to carry a gun after 1 malfunction, then I'd never have a gun to carry!

I have a safe full of S&W revolvers, some of which I have put thousands of rounds through, with nary a malfunction.

I'm not saying I've never had a malfunction in a Smith, just that I have a bunch of them that I have never had a malfunction in.

I'm not sure you meant to say what you did. It reads like you've had at least one malfunction in all your carry guns.
That's probably correct for most of my carry guns! Most of my carry guns have many thousands of hard rounds through them, as they aren't just devoted to that one purpose (although a couple are, and do recieve better treatment). I honestly don't usually care about ammo quality for informal range practice, so these guns see some real junk, which they don't always like. They see high round counts and heavy, fast shooting, which tends to be hard on parts. They see me shooting while fatigued and such, etc.

I have a couple guns that I can't recall a malfunction out of, but I don't shoot them often and that is probably the reason. One does come with me some times, so I guess you could burn me on a technicality here, but my message is this:

I either have, or expect to see, a malfunction at one point in time or another, from every single one of my firearms. If you shoot yours enough then you too will experience this. It should not necessarily mean that trust in the weapon should be abandoned.
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Old December 20, 2008, 11:27 PM   #7
HKFan9
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Anything mechanical will malfunction at some point.
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Old December 20, 2008, 11:32 PM   #8
Doug S
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Regardless of whether or not you should accept malfunctions as inevitable in a carry gun, the G26 would be a very good trade IMO. I went the Kel-Tec route, and that led me to the G26. Would even consider going back to the Kel-tec(s).
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Old December 21, 2008, 12:30 AM   #9
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As mentioned before, any gun can have problems, even revolvers. I wouldn't stop carrying my G19 if it experiences one malfunction which there was a minor one I had in the past. The slide failed to lock back after the last round had been sent down range. I think my thumb was riding the slide stop though, but other than that, no problems. If a chosen CCW gun that I have experiences more than four or five malfunctions in a single range session, then I might re-consider its duty as a carry gun, until I can figure out what is causing the problem(s).
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Old December 21, 2008, 02:17 AM   #10
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If you shoot them long enough, most guns will likely malfunction at one point or another. Ultimately for a CCW, I agree with the idea that if the gun can go 200-250 MRBF, it is probably good enough to carry, and most quality guns can go much more than that.
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Old December 21, 2008, 03:16 AM   #11
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Almost 2000 rounds

through a Taurus Millennium PT-145 Pro. I have recorded 7 failures to eject in those all rounds. I know the problem. It's not the gun, it's not the ammo, it's me.

Every once in a while, I grow a bit weary and lose concentration (I'm 75) and limp wrist the gun, and Mister Millennium Pro tells me I've screwed up by sending the bullet God-knows-where and leaving me with a jammed slide and a red face.

It's not the gun it's the gunner.
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Old December 21, 2008, 03:28 AM   #12
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malfunctions

My mother has a Taurus PT 92 that does not like Remington ammo at all. It will shoot great with Winchester or Federal so feed it what it likes.
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Old December 21, 2008, 04:38 AM   #13
oldandslow
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nat, 12/21/08

As others have said- anything mechanical can fail. With pistols it is usually bad ammo, bad mags or weak springs. One reason to carry an extra mag is that most malfunctions can be corrected by inserting a new mag.

I have a number of carry pistols with round count up to 8000 on each. Many have had infrequent failures. Failures can be minimized by keeping a log of round counts and maintenence so you know when to replace the old springs. Bad ammo can be minimized by using factory ammo or possibly your own reloads if good quality (factory ammo for carry). Mag failures can be prevented by first buying quality mags and then inspecting them and replacing springs when needed.

You have to put a few thousand rounds through your pistol so you can figure out what your failure rate is. Then you can decide if it is reliable enough for carry. My personal criteria is that a pistol has to have less than one failure in every thousand rounds to be reliable for carry. Most of my pistols easily exceed this. Good luck.

Merry Christmas- oldandslow
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Old December 21, 2008, 02:50 PM   #14
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I have a pre-80 Commander that didn't like hollow points until it got a throat and polish job. I never used it for CCW, but now that it's reliable, I probably would carry it if something happened to my "normal" carry, a 1991A1 Commander.

And, to be completely honest, the 1991A1 didn't like the Colt magazines that came with it. Better magazines solved its problems, no malfunctions since.

I also had an Officer's Model that had some feed problems, but once that was resolved, my wife carries it. She's 100% happy with it -- no malfunctions.

Once a pistol has its problems "fixed", I can't see a problem with using it for CCW. (And by fixed, I don't mean kinda-sorta, but an honest change in parts, fit or whatever that absolutely cures the problem.)
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Old December 21, 2008, 03:42 PM   #15
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Look at the bright side! it failed to feed the last round not the first
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Old December 21, 2008, 03:53 PM   #16
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They're really bad pistols. I'll buy it off ya for $50.
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Old December 21, 2008, 03:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
Anyone else get rid of a CCW after 1 malf?
Yes, all the time...If it happens early, or later; it's off to the aisles of the next GUN SHOW!...I would always have the FTF lurking in the decayed abscess's of my mind....
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Old December 21, 2008, 05:24 PM   #18
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I strip my guns down as much as I reasonably can, and clean and check them out, used or new, lube them up, and off to the range, or my friend's backyard they go. I put new factory ammo in them, and if it's a new semiauto, I will forgive a couple of stovepipes, but once it goes past the 250 round mark, and it's still doing it, then it's probably going to be gone soon. If it's got 500 rounds through it, and it jams for any reason, such as "limpwristing" it's gone, period, it's out of here. Since I started rolling every round on a flat surface before I load the mags, ammo related failures are almost zero, as "oval" rounds are simple to pick up. My current semiautos:

Beretta 950 Jetfire .25
Beretta 92FS
Astra A-75 .40S&W
Astra A-75 9mm
Astra A-100 pmm
Bernardelli P-018 Compact 9mm
EAA Witness Fullsize .45ACP

All are "bug free" and are immune to "limpwristing" and any other nonsense excuses people make for guns that have problems, even if I TRY to make them misfire. If the cartridge goes off, they won't jam.
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Old December 21, 2008, 05:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natjohnb
IMO, a carry gun should never fail,
Good luck with that.

Guns break. Guns malf. It's what they do.

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Old December 21, 2008, 05:51 PM   #20
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I got rid of my Taurus M85. Siezed up solid after 200 rounds or so. I no longer own and certainly didn't trust it as a carry piece.
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Old December 21, 2008, 06:19 PM   #21
ActivShootr
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You guys are pretty harsh. Do you sell your cars if they won't start?

I'll take any junk cars or guns. Haul them off free of charge.

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Old December 21, 2008, 06:20 PM   #22
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i would not give up on a gun after A malfunction.
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Old December 21, 2008, 06:20 PM   #23
natjohnb
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Quote:
Good luck with that.

Guns break. Guns malf. It's what they do.
Tam,

I meant those words in a general sense, not in absolute terms... I fully realize that any mechanical device, whether high or low quality, can and will fail at some point.

My SW1911 with a couple thousand rounds through it, has had ZERO failures, ever. At some point it will probably choke for some reason, that is the nature of any semi-auto, but it will still be a gun that I can have some faith in.

A $280 Kel-tec that has a feed failure (for no readily apparent reason) in the first 200 rounds, isn't worth $200-$300 more in premium ammo just to figure out if it's going to be reliable or not, IMO.

I was shaky about Kel-tec when I bought it in the first place, now I've made up my mind. Call me a snob if you want.

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Put not your faith in magic swords.


My "faith" is in much Higher places...

I need to be able to "trust" my CC gun to work reliably.
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Old December 21, 2008, 06:33 PM   #24
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It depends on what malfunction you are talking about. A fail to eject, extract, or maybe the bullet just getting ahead of the extractor? No. Firing out of battery, or with the safety on? That would warrant a trip to the gunsmith or it may go far, far, away!
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Old December 21, 2008, 06:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
one was a S&W M&P compact that had user-induced FTF (thumb engaged mag release constantly),
I had the same problem with a Vektor CP1 and could only cure that with a left hand mag release.
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