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Old December 11, 2008, 04:19 AM   #101
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it just takes some people more to have their eyes opened, they like to believe in the innate good of people.

and some people never open their eyes till its too late.

when i look at people i register levels of threat before i see them as people.
it may be a bit "off" but i figure it will probaly keep me alive.
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
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Old December 11, 2008, 04:48 PM   #102
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I have a feeling some of the people posting don't live in high crime areas. if you think that was just a guy looking for help, you would not last long in a dangerous place. The intent of the man approaching a stranger in the dark was clearly not friendly or respectful and about 99% chance of being the start of a crime. If alarm bells were not going off, then you don't have any radar at all.
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Old December 13, 2008, 01:40 AM   #103
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I certainly hope I'm one of those people who believe in the innate goodness of people. I've certainly had my chance to lose a little bit of that optimism after 16 years of newspaper photography. I don't compare myself to a LEO or a FD personnel but I've seen more than my share of what human beings are willing to do to each other and to what state circumstances can bring them.
That doesn't mean I'm not prepared, within the law, to defend me and mine if that's called for.
My threat radar, in 17 years of living a one of the most dangerous cities in the country, has only gone off a few times. Considering where I live, if it went off every time someone behaved like the possible BG, I'd have to barricade myself in and never leave the house. Stuff like that just happen around here.
However, I certainly don't think I'm particularly naive, considering home invasion murders, drive by shootings, hell, walk by shootings, stabbing death have all happened within a half a block to a few blocks of where I'm typing this right now. That's why a HK USP .40 with 165 gr. Fed. Hydra-Shock HPs is sitting next to the computer.
I'm just saying mine is set to my personal filter settings and it suits me fine, just like OP's suits him.
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Old December 14, 2008, 12:25 PM   #104
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I can't see why anyone would question Sparks' actions here. If you pay attention in the real world then you KNOW when someone is up to no good. He listened to his gut. He made the decision to stop the encounter while he could still control it. "IF" he had thought that the guy really needed something and allowed him to approach and was wrong, then he would no longer be in total control and his decisions would have more permanent and lasting consequences. Anyone who is met with a defensive position and really needs help would immediately begin pleading his case and trying to put the person he was asking at ease. I walked into a robbery when I was young and only after the fact did I recognize what my gut was screaming out to me. This a textbook success story in how to do it!
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Old December 16, 2008, 01:21 PM   #105
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Woman Attacked In Wal-mart Parking Lot.

Seem familiar?
J.M. Johnston
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Old December 16, 2008, 02:19 PM   #106
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you did good sparksie. your wife and baby are in good hands. the facts are quite obvious and clear. you acted as I would have in that situation, and, as many others here would as well. as for those that are so neck-deep in the toilet of crap where they live that this BG's behaviour could be seen as anything other than threatening, well, I feel sorry for them and would advise a relocation.

Max is, obviously, completely wrong. but that pattern has been demonstrated in other threads as well.
Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum

Last edited by Vergeltung; December 16, 2008 at 02:21 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old December 16, 2008, 10:39 PM   #107
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wow Max! did u ever consider that he had his pregnant wife with him? If being approached my a sketchy guy in a walmart parking lot in this situations isnt enough of a reason to at least check to make sure yr gun is ready than idk what is. I would much rather be brandishing and at least have a chance to defend myself than put my wife and childs life at risk
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Old December 17, 2008, 12:48 AM   #108
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I grew up in rural/suburbia...NEVER going back!

We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I may be in a dubious area but its mostly filled with good people who share the same outlook on life.
Not to mention, we can actually afford to live here. Although when the New Year's Eve firework is supplemented with rounds, I sometimes wonder.
Plus, the way you guys make it sound, I just have to stick it out here and all the problems will be going out to the burbs.
(I was trying for a smiley face but its not coming up.)
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Old December 17, 2008, 01:13 AM   #109
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A problem Wal-Mart refuses to address

I have shopped at this Wal-Mart in the past, as I worked and lived in the area in 1998 to 2003, I was a manager at Colerain Dodge. The Kroger on Colerain Ave had uniformed police officers in the parking lot back then because of this type of activity.
This has been happening for years at Wal-marts all over America. If you think that the bad guys don't know that Wal-Mart has refused to address the issue, except when forced to, you are locked in a box.
Get a copy of the documentary, 'The high cost of low price', this has been the cause of robbery, rape, kidnapping and murder and numerous lawsuits against Wal-Mart for lack of or no security at all. My hat goes off to this man for being prepared and knowing how to address this situation, in order to protect his family and himself.
By the choices we make, we define ourselves, thereby revealing what we truly care about.
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Old December 17, 2008, 02:20 AM   #110
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All's well that ends well. I was not there and will not voice an opinion on your actions however, I have shopped there after work (2nd shift) and lived in the general area over forty years and it sure as hell aint getting better. The economy is in the tank, the Sheriff is telling the media because of budget cuts one of the jails will be closed and the non choir boys will be out. Knowbody has the right to invade your comfort zone at that time of night or any time for that matter after you told them to stop. I guess I did kinda voice an opinion after all.
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Old December 17, 2008, 10:39 PM   #111
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Pruedent man test - Someone asks to approach, you tell them "no, stay away", yet they disregard your request. A pruedent man might assume that since they won't respect your wishes, they won't respct you.

On the other side of the transaction, a pruedent man who is told to keep his distance, yet has a legitimate need for assistance, would stop and explain himself (or leave). If further negotiation works out, fine and dandy. If it doesn't, one should seek asssistnace elsewhere.

To click it up a notch, you're in a threatening situation, you draw your weapon and [loudly] warn the threat off. If they take you seriously and leave, fine. (I would then call the cops -) If they don't, and keep coming, how would you react? From my keyboard, I woud assume that, given they have seen my weapon, heard my [loud] demand to stay away, yet they keep coming, I woud fear that they will try to take my weapon and use it against me, and I will shoot them to the ground (i.e. neutralize the threat). Hopefully, there are witnesses, etc. to back up my play.

So, Mr fawcettlee, Max, et al, fans of basic human goodness, how would you play it as described above (and in the OP)? Comments & critiques welcome -
The Second Amendment IS homeland defense!
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Old January 7, 2009, 11:29 PM   #112
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Mike in VA

Personally, if I was trying to ask someone a question in a parking lot and that person is yelling at me AND is preparing to draw a weapon, I don't care how legitimate my need is, I'm walking away. For all I know, you're a psycho who is incapable of being reasoned with by anyone. I'm not looking to get in a shooting battle with anyone if I have the opportunity to avoid it.

As for me being threatened... As I've stated in previous posts, a man 40 yards away who says he wants to speak to you is not high on my threat radar. Hell. I just walked my dog in a park where, in previous times, a man used to circuit, yelling obscenities at the top of his lungs. He just became part of the scenery. This evening, walking out of the park, I could hear the local druggies discussing things in pitch darkness, 20 yards up the hill from me. Do I draw a weapon then? (Actually, I can't since I'd need to have at least 3 documented instances of threats to my life in order to be even considered for a CCW in my fair state.)

So what would I do? I'd follow the law in my jurisdiction and retreat away from the perceived threat. I don't care if I'm the one running away, even if I do have a gun. I don't mind looking foolish if I can avoid using deadly force and all the legal headaches that accompanies it. If they don't clearly demonstrate an attempt to take my life, I'm not allowed to use deadly force, even in my home until all avenues of retreat are closed to me. That being said, if I'm awakened by someone who breaks down my door, sets off the alarm and STILL keeps coming upstairs, I'll be waiting with my weapon, unlike one of my neighbors who had that happened to her in July and was killed.
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Old January 7, 2009, 11:57 PM   #113
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Good job, Sparks. for your detractors 8^).

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Old January 9, 2009, 01:12 PM   #114
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Seems Pretty Clear to Me. Nice Job, Sparks

Big guy, late night, approaching fast, ignores your "NO", pregnant wife, bad area... Hard to see how anyone would not recognize this as a developing threat and tell the BG to stay away. At least, anyone on this forum.

Without a gun, Sparks still should have done the same thing - drop bags, turn and face threat, check 6 oclock, repeat command (in other words, be totally fearless, like Ginger). With a gun, he simply had a more effective means of stopping the potential threat. Which, thankfully for everyone, it wasn't. IMHO, he did everything right.

You have to listen to your gut, or lizard brain, or call it what you will. Add a wife or kids to the picture and your "safe" perimeter should expand further. 75 feet and rapidly approaching? Sparks did very well to keep the BG that far away. Who cares if sometime you're rude to a stranger? You come zooming in on me and my wife in a parking lot late at night, rude is the least you'll get from me.

Sparks, well done. Stay vigilant.
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent

"Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.
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Old January 9, 2009, 03:39 PM   #115
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Yes, I have to agree. The OP acted properly and responsibly. Couldn't hope for a better outcome.
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Old January 9, 2009, 04:19 PM   #116
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what if he just wanted to talk..... ask directions or or ask for help.
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Old January 9, 2009, 04:25 PM   #117
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what if he just wanted to talk..... ask directions or or ask for help.
This has been discussed earlier in the thread, but the key points are that he kept approaching after being told no. There was a car idling with its lights off waiting for him. And if he just wanted directions, he could have said so when approaching, rather than just saying he 'needed to talk to him.'
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Old January 9, 2009, 05:43 PM   #118
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Well done Sparks.

Pregnant wife, no questions, no time. You used your head and diffused this situation. As for those who disagree, you better damn well get over it. When it comes to a man's wife and child there are no friggin' rules. A man WILL go to jail if it means his wife and kid are alive. A man WILL put a bullet in another man's chest for not ceasing and being aggressive. There are times folks when the written law has to go to hell and you might just have to duke it out in court.

But as for Sparks, YOU cannot discredit, debunk, form hypotheses, and critique how this man chose to potentially save the life of his wife and unborn child.

FIGHT'S ARE NOT FAIR!!! BG's know this, best you figure it out to.

What is it the Marines say....

"Always cheat, always win."
"Have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
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Old January 9, 2009, 06:03 PM   #119
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You know I'm from that area of Cinn. and when I was in High School used to go any where around there and never worry about it.
I was just talking to my ex-wife this evening and she was going up there to spend some time with her mother (who you would have to drag out of that area) and I told her it isn't like it was when we were in high school.
The last time I was in the area I felt endangered in the broad daylight.
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Old January 9, 2009, 09:01 PM   #120
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Sorry to hear about the event and I am very glad your family walked away without harm.

After reading most of the posts, I think the person was a person of interest and caution and preparation was warranted. I was not there so i can't be sure, but there remains the possibility that the perk neither had the ability or opportunity to cause harm the way it went down. So looking at the CCW rules, revealing your concealment was most likely inappropriate and escalated the event to a dangerous level. Had the perk been one of those naturally hostile to threats, it would not have been pretty even though he might have asked for directions.

A criminal adversary must have or reasonably appear to have:

A. The ABILITY to inflict serious bodily injury. He is armed or reasonably appears to be armed.

B. The OPPORTUNITY to inflict serious bodily harm. He is positioned to harm you with his weapon, and,

C. His INTENT (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy - to do you serious or fatal physical harm.

Had I had been there I might have done the same. This is one of the reasons why even though I am authorized to CCW, I don't most of the time. I believe in access to protection, but from personal experiences, I know that presenting a threat can make bad things happen.

For example, i was out with 6 friends when much younger visiting a donuts store. We were rowdy but only to each other. We ordered donuts and the guy behind the counter showed us his gun. That put everyone on high alert and that guy got a hostile response. He was darn lucky we were just kids wanting a snack. He probably thought that gun prevented something but the opposite is true. Not one of us were scared of that him with that gun.


Last edited by sunsetbrew; January 9, 2009 at 09:14 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old January 9, 2009, 09:08 PM   #121
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Very good job.
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Old January 9, 2009, 11:54 PM   #122
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Sparks: great job--you handled the situation nonviolently, compassionately and firmly. Colerain is a bit out of my range, but I've been approached by a couple of shady types at Walmart/HomeDepot on Highland in Cincy. Body language and firm tone of voice have worked well but I did paint one with a flashlight when he was aggressive.

There are also a couple of folks working the "Hey, can I talk to you?" angle at Rookwood--one clever guy who hangs out in front of Lone Star as if he were a customer out having a smoke hassling people walking to Joseph Beth. I haven't actually figured out what he wants, though he has asked me if he could talk to me on a couple of different nights. Both gas stations at Madison and Edwards, too. And one dude who's habitually in front of Graeter's/Teller's in Hyde Park Square. So even in your neighborhood: maintain good SA. I replied to a text message while walking in Hyde Park Square and the next thing I know, this dude is a meter away, asking me for money. Had he punched me in the snoot, it would have been my fault.

I think you done great.
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Old January 12, 2009, 10:14 AM   #123
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So looking at the CCW rules, revealing your concealment was most likely inappropriate and escalated the event to a dangerous level.
I didn't reveal anything. My cover garment never cleared my weapon. I think he just got the idea based on my body language/preparedness to draw.
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Old January 12, 2009, 11:35 AM   #124
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Sparksie, don't cha just love the Monday monring QBs? I dare say 99% of us whom have had pregnant wives with us understand your actions completely.
Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum
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Old January 12, 2009, 12:57 PM   #125
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I'm going to close this because:

1. Consensus is that our OP acted reasonably.
2. Every once in awhile someone wants to bring up the same critique as if it was a new idea. Then folks support the OP.
3. Thus, we generated 5 pages and face the redundancy wall.

NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
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Being an Active Shooter
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