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Old September 23, 2008, 11:04 AM   #1
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Let's agree to get real

If competing was about the equipment, then the folks with the most money would win.

They don't, because it's not.
It's about using your gear.

So, "First it must go bang".
Buy that.

It must offer "controllable accuracy".
Buy or make that, regardless of PF or scoring.

Then some other stuff. Like ensuring ALL your gear (from holsters and belts to eyewear and shoes) works reliably.

Then it's just talent and practice (I hate that part, as I have neither).

Still fun, though.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
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Old September 23, 2008, 03:49 PM   #2
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While I agree that talent is ultimately the deciding factor that doesn't mean you shouldn't take advantage of the available technology. I know of no professional shooter who is so in awe of his or her talent that they don't also ensure they are using the best quality equipment.

While a top of the line fully prepped weapon won't suddenly make you a better shooter it will allow you to maximize your scoring ability and/or your survivability.
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Old September 23, 2008, 06:25 PM   #3
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Yes BUT equipment can limit someone's performance.

For instance..

If you show-up at an XTC match with an unaccurized Garand using ball ammo - it's going to have a dramatic affect on the outcome.

You don't need the best of the best when it comes to firearms but you do need one capable of the precision necessary to compete.
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Old September 23, 2008, 06:39 PM   #4
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The top IDPA and IPSC shooters don't need top equipment to beat me, they need it to beat the other top shooters in sports timed to the hundreth of a second.
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Old September 23, 2008, 06:58 PM   #5
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I remeber when I first started shooting IPSC. One of the shooters (master class) shot a friday night match with a bone stock Smith model 39.Even scored as minor he still wooped up on guys can flat A$$ shoot.
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
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Old September 27, 2008, 12:22 AM   #6
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" guys can flat A$$ shoot..." Yep. However, that didn't happen overnight. Lots of practice and corporate sponsorship matters. A buddy of mine practiced for weeks before a Second Chance Shoot, long ago. He beat Miculek in a man-on-man shoot. Miculek's a class act too. Had his hand out in congratulations to the known Canadian guy before my buddy knew he had won.
" unaccurized Garand using ball ammo..." Some M1's with a good barrel don't need accurizing. And not all of 'em need match ammo. Certainly helps though.
Spelling and grammar count!
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Old September 27, 2008, 10:50 AM   #7
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Well, I know that you do in fact need a substantial amount of money (substantial being a relative term of course). Because practice is not free, neither is all of the ammo you go through doing it, or the range time, or the gas, or the vehicle to get you there....etc, etc, etc.

We can all agree that you cannot win without practice, and I guess the more talent you have the cheaper it will be for you to reach/achieve a certain level. Since you won't need as much practice...

I'd say having all of the top of the line equipment like the pros do coud be worth a second or so off, depending on the round count. That's alot when you're dividing it into such a low number like my hit score! Lol
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Old October 1, 2008, 12:02 PM   #8
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what I meant

We all know weenies who think that if they just buy the latest most expensive set of golf clubs it's all they need to be win.

We all know weenies who think that if they just buy the latest most expensive Open gun (see "the Rush to 9 Major") it's all they need to be win.
Or whatever latest most expensive gun for whatever Division.

We all know it ain't.
We all know it takes considerably more than just spending money.

That's what I meant.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
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Old October 1, 2008, 04:36 PM   #9
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Very, very, true...

I have had very limited oppurtunities to shoot in competitive events, but I did get to compete in the 'Alabama State Games' centerfire pistol events last year. There were about 25 competitors (ran the spectrum of skill/ experience levels), and the events consisted of International Centerfire, bowling pins, 3 IDPA stages, and steel plate matches. I competed in all events using my bone stock Glock 35 that also doubles as my duty weapon which I have put thousands of rounds through. The events also happened to be held at our range, so I had a bit of a "home field advantage".
The guns used by the various competitors ranged from other stock autos to finely tuned revolvers, to one guy who had an EXTREMELY tricked out 'race gun'. I fully expected him to be a great shooter just based on the fact that I knew his set up didn't come cheap, and he was 'dressed' for the part. But instead of impressing everyone with his shooting, he spent the whole day telling everyone why he wasn't performing up to snuff, and what was going wrong for him. He didn't even make the top 3 in the Man vs Man Elimination plate match...

The guy who won that match and 8 other gold medals that day was a guy shooting a bone stock Glock 35 that he was extremely familiar with, and had spent a lot of time on the range with.
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Old October 1, 2008, 10:18 PM   #10
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Yeah I know what you meant, I was just attempting to point out my shortcomings and poke alittle fun at myself.

Nice job!
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Old October 1, 2008, 10:38 PM   #11
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We all know weenies who think that if they just buy the latest most expensive set of golf clubs it's all they need to be win.
its different with golf. equipment makes a BIG difference.
years ago i bought a set of Ping eye2 with the then innovative super lite shafts.
shot the best round of my life with those clubs! A 64!!!
for 9 holes.
on a pitch and putt course.
best damn clubs i ever owned!
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Old October 2, 2008, 03:16 AM   #12
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This thread is reminding me of the old gag...
Stranger: "I'm new in town... How do I get to Carnegie Hall?"
NYC Hipster: "Practice, man, practice."

In the shooting sports, practice is paramount, and like the musician aspiring to Carnegie Hall, your training and natural ability should be the limiting factors to your success, not a sour sounding instrument.
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Old October 11, 2008, 10:59 PM   #13
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ever hear of production division? My g-35 works great for both major and minor pf. Gun is great in limited too. I do like my custom 2011's though. Don't forget about the Rob Vogels and Dave Sevigny taking out Tgo w a glock...
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Old October 16, 2008, 05:07 PM   #14
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"Practice, man, practice."
Just because you got a nice set of pots and pans dosen't mean you can cook

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Old October 17, 2008, 04:19 AM   #15
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My son and I started high power this year. When we got our results back from the first match we placed close to the bottom. We practiced throughout the beginning of the year and shot more matches. We ran out of time and money for live fire practice so we started dry firing and practicing getting into positions at our houses a lot. We moved up to the middle of the pack. Now at the end of the season we both placed 1st and 3rd at the last two matches. Practice, Practice, Practice.
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Old October 17, 2008, 08:41 AM   #16
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THAT'S real.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:38 AM   #17
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Would have a little more credibility if they removed the 'P'.

Shoot the matches, they're fun.

Courses of fire are built around the latest pistol modifications.

If someone comes up with a 47 round magazine-you will see a plenty of 47 round stages. Invent a X31 power pistol scope and screw it down on a 1911 -find targets well suited for X31 pistol scopes.

IDPA...shoot the matches...they're fun. It would be more fun if they left their ego at home. No one is perfect. A lot of good people are working hard. Hopefully they will leave BW at home to count the money.

Have fun and shoot the matchs.
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Old November 2, 2008, 11:46 AM   #18
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Now days people want high priced sub min sniper rifles. Carlos Hathcock the well known Marine Master Sniper of Vietnam used a Winchester Model 70 in '06 that shot consistang 2 min groups. GO FIGURE.

I've seen high price sub minute rifles at high power and 1000 yards matches. The 10-X ring of those targets are a hair over 2 minutes. However, you see very few cleaned targets. At 1000 yard matches you can't really tell the differance between those high price rifles and a service rifles, like the AR or M1A. Its the shooter that makes the diffrerance when the rubber meets the road. Its not the equipment, its hard work on the shooters part. I've seen shooters with service grade M1s from CMP smoke those high price guns at high power and 1000 yard matches.

In my High Power Clinics, when people ask about the best rifle, I recommend getting a reasonable priced rifle that can shoot 2 minutes, and spend the differnace in ammo down range.
Kraig Stuart
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
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Old November 2, 2008, 11:56 AM   #19
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Sometimes a LOT of practice and talent is what it takes just to pull even with a untalented novice who is using quality gear.
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Old November 3, 2008, 01:17 AM   #20
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It's not all about equipment but depending on what you shoot (sporting group/division) it does create an unequal playing field.

For instance if I went to a USPSA shoot with my XD .45, leather IWB holster, and factory mag holder I'm at a disadvantage to someone shooting the same gun with a "speed holster" with the crazy mag holders positioned all around their bodies at weird angles.

Let me clarify and say I'm at a disadvantage if I'm shooting anything other than production class with my gun and gear. If I move into limited I think the rules open up quite a bit regarding equipment and placement of equipment. So I think USPSA solved that problem by implementing the Production division and establishing limits that are "normal" for beginning shooters.

From an individiual perspective I think the original idea is right, if I go drop 3000 on a custom 1911 my shooting might marginally improve. But as a whole the competitive nature of the sport is divided up among divisions so you get to pick your poison.
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Old November 3, 2008, 03:55 AM   #21
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I have no qualms shooting a $500 gun vs. a $5000 gun if my scores don't reflect the difference. I love nice guns, and own many 2011's built by todays greatest builders. I see production guns as toyotas. They run.... My Sv is like a mercedes Benz. It drives so much nicer, looks like a million bucks, and makes me feel so cool for driving it. When it pukes, I take it to the specialist and pay out the nose. I shoot a g-35 that I have modified myself, and have a really nice production racer. As my eyes get worse, and my physical ability degrades, open blasters that hold 31 rds, compensators, and optics keep me in the game. Albeit much more expensive.
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Old November 4, 2008, 08:06 AM   #22
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For me, shooting amd golf have a lot in common when it comes to equipment. Bad equipment can negate any advantage I may have in technique, attitude, strategy, etc. But if I have decent equipment, then it is up to me to practice, practice, practice, and solidify my fundamentals.

Just like in golf, when I begin to shoot bad, it is because I am neglecting my fundamentals - I am flinching or not getting a good sight picture, whatever. When I shoot well my fundamentals are good.

And, like golf, I find that I can't automatically buy a better score. Just like I can miss a putt just as well with a $300 putter as with the beater that came with my first set, I can miss targets just as well with a $5000 race gun as I can with my stock G17. I still have to aim, control the trigger, follow through, and think ahead.
I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

Fighting the never ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way.
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Old November 4, 2008, 10:41 AM   #23
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I guess money still can’t buy happiness. Although, I have seen the “magic wand” effect that an expensive pistol can have with shooters that have ability and skill but for whatever reason lack confidence. Equipment can have an effect, I run glocks just a few tics slower than I can run svi/sti’s but the difference between a “good/bad” day is often greater.
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