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Old August 27, 2008, 04:58 PM   #26
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.......... Also, when we have to shoot, the Regulation reads, "with intent to disable, never to kill"... It goes so far as to aim anywhere other then the head/heart...
Are you sure you're not working security in Denver? That would be like a host nation with all those libs in town.

OK, sorry, must be the Red Bull again

There's obviously some confusion, since much of the boards advice (NO Warning shots) seems to address US laws applicable to SD situations for citizens.

Since you are neither in the USA nor covered by US laws, then let us in on the facts, since you started the thread.

Are your rules applicable to rioters, guard duty situations where sabotage may be a problem, kids throwing rocks, protests? Out with it, my man!
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Old August 27, 2008, 05:30 PM   #27
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In my travels abroad I was taught the 5 S. Shout Show Shove Shoot (warning) Shoot (for reals) Of course you can always skip to the appropriate step if necessary.

1 Shout_____STOP!!!
2 Show_____ point gun at them
3 Shove_____Use nonlethal here if possible, like a size 12 boot
4 Shoot_____warning shot
5 Shoot_____center mass

ROE is a major PITA overseas. There are laws everywhere, the OP has to answer to either UCMJ or the host nation. Many here know only the laws of their state, but it ain't that different overseas. Unfortunately
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Old August 27, 2008, 08:11 PM   #28
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So who thinks a warning shot is a good/necessary thing to do?
Absolutely the BEST thing you can do!

Especially if you want to spend extended periods of time in jail,
be sued,
have your permit pulled
and have to spend hours explaining to some really MAD Cops why you did such a stupid thing.
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Old August 27, 2008, 08:19 PM   #29
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No warning shots, EVER.
+1 If I ever have to shoot twice to stop, then he can consider the first one a warning if he wishes, but other than that...........
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Old August 27, 2008, 08:31 PM   #30
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I believe for the civilian population, a stray warning shot that kills someone can result in 2nd Degree Murder charges. Not to mention wrongful death liabilities and other tort suits...

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Old August 27, 2008, 08:40 PM   #31
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My brother and I have had this conversation a couple of times and we both agree; never in a million years would we fire our weapons unless they were pointed center mass. Every round that leaves your weapon has a lawyer attached to it so you better be dam sure you know where it's going and what it's doing.
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Old August 27, 2008, 10:57 PM   #32
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Absolutely not. Ayoob discusses why in The Gravest Extreme and other books.
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Old August 28, 2008, 03:22 AM   #33
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Old August 28, 2008, 08:34 AM   #34
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+1 Bad.

ROE's suck sometimes though
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Old August 28, 2008, 10:44 AM   #35
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When I first became a police officer in the 70's we were told "there is no such thing as a warning shot".
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Old August 29, 2008, 08:35 AM   #36
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Another "warning shots are a bad idea" advocate. The exceptions are few enough and far enough in between the lines of the debate so as to be of no practical consequence.
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
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Old August 29, 2008, 12:34 PM   #37
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rules applicable to rioters, guard duty situations where sabotage may be a problem, kids throwing rocks, protests? Out with it, my man!
Well, I'm an Air Force cop... Unless we're being shot at, we HAVE to use 2 warning shots. Protests, and rioters have been dealt with twice since I've been here. They (the TuAF) have us retreat, then handle it the best they can. Never have had hostilities that required a shoot scenario here, so we haven't had to put the rule to the test.

A lot of us know its a terrible idea to fire warning shots, but we will be held accountable by host nation courts for failure to comply... :barf:
The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave...
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Old August 29, 2008, 12:45 PM   #38
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I would never fire a warning shot for any reason ... if my gun is in my hand, it means that I'm in dire circumstances, my life is threatened, and it's time for me to protect it ... that doesn't mean every draw ends with a shot fired; it just means that I'm ready to fire the shot if I need to ... we have all heard the stats; thousands of crimes avoided every year when the BG simply SEES a gun in the hand of his intended victim, and I'd hope any confrontation I was in would end that way. But if I have to draw, it's for a reason ... the BG can see the gun, he doesn't need to hear it; he'll hear it soon enough if he doesn't step off ...

I sure sympathize with the OP; what preposterous rules to have to work with ...
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Old August 29, 2008, 01:18 PM   #39
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+1 on it being a bad idea.

I think your out is in the part of the policy that says, "unless hostilities are already in progress"

Unless hostilities are already in progress you wouldn't even have had to pull your gun. Obviously the situation had already degraded enough that there was no time for a warning shot.

Following that company policy will get you killed. Not following it might get you fired. Which would you rather be?
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Old August 29, 2008, 01:37 PM   #40
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For those commissioned, it might be necessary per policy

For civilians, they are a bad idea, in general. If you are not a Trooper on patrol, fire only when you or those you are authorized to protect, are in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily injury. In such a case, a warning shot is not necessary nor prudent, IMHO.

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Old August 29, 2008, 01:53 PM   #41
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Bad Idea, first you just told them that more force ( on the BG end ) is necessary, second, you gave away your position, and now they have time to pull on you and start shooting. Thats my nickles ( inflation ) worth anyway
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Old August 29, 2008, 03:23 PM   #42
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C'mon guys. "NEVER use a warning shot".

Depends where you're at. My Dad's neighbor in Texas got accosted by a group of guys at his house. They were making threats and gesturing with tire irons, etc, working their way to his front yard. He pulled his 1911 and shot into the dirt, then pointed it at them. They took off like scalded cats. Dad witnessed the whole thing.

The police arrived about 5 minutes later. Officer took notes, then stated "you did good, glad that's all it took". No charges filed, nothing.

So you simply cannot make a blanket statement that warning shots are always a bad idea. I have other stories to back this up.

Now here's a question. Fight breaks out, several individuals are beating the snot out of one person on the ground, perhaps with bats and boots. Lethal force is justified (in VA anyway) to prevent "grave bodily injury" to a third party. Lots of yelling and screaming. If you start yelling as well, it probably won't be heard. You don't necessarily want to start shooting, but get the message across you will if needed. Then what?
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Old August 29, 2008, 03:45 PM   #43
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The risk of the warning shot is that it might go to the wrong place.

That's why we need the all purpose gun-o-phonics.

The gun-o-phonics makes the following sound effects quite loudly and fits on your belt:

1. Shotgun racking
2. The warning shot
3. The police siren in the distance.
4. Make my day - Clint
5. Fill your hands, you sonofabitch - John Wayne
6. Please don't hurt me
7. Or you could record other sounds of your choice.
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Old August 29, 2008, 04:10 PM   #44
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The only warning shot i've ever fired was 40mm and smoke and that's only because it's what the ROE dictated. If it were up to me, if a group of men standing with m16s and m4s isn't enough warning, you're up to no good. That being said I simply can't imagine an instance where a warning shot would be justified. A mob of people intent on killing you? I'll fire 3 or so warning shots into four seperate people, then reload and see if I need to give anymore warning . I'm not about to try and waste ammo or my time by shooting pavement. All a warning shot is going to do is escalate the situation. If you're not justified to shoot, then don't shoot at all.
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Old August 29, 2008, 05:18 PM   #45
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So you simply cannot make a blanket statement that warning shots are always a bad idea. I have other stories to back this up.
You're not alone. Plenty of evidence, historical and recent, indicates the the warning shot has worked well on numerous instances. I've used them twice to great success, and my father has once. again, I don't recommend it as a normal course of action, but it is a tool in the box that might be just what you need sometimes.
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Old August 31, 2008, 07:27 PM   #46
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A warning shot has two purposes - to stop a person who may or may not be intent on doing you harm or to effect an arrest.

For CCW, the second is out. You are not authorized to make an arrest, so any shot you fire must be in defense of yourself or (depending on the law) another innocent person.

A warning shot to stop is also problematical for a CCW. In most cases of armed attack outside the home, wasting time on a warning shot would be pointless and possibly dangerous. In the home, you don't need a CCW but are not really authorized to fire to warn someone who is outside your home. If he has broken in or is attempting to break in, you again would waste time warning, as he has already made clear his intention to invade your home and by implication, do you injury if necessary to achieve his goals.

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Old August 31, 2008, 08:23 PM   #47
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Warning shot? I don't THINK so.

A bullet costs about 15 cents. After it is fired the price goes up to about a million bucks and there are 6 lawyers sitting around waiting for it to land.
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Old August 31, 2008, 10:49 PM   #48
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In all of my training I have been told to get off the "X" yell "STOP!" in an authoratative voice and if they fail to comply, I stop them. No warning shots. EVERY BULLET HAS A LAWYER ATTACHED TO IT. Sorry for yelling, but its that important.
"If you put one in the snot locker, it doesn't matter what calibre it is".
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Old September 1, 2008, 01:00 PM   #49
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NukeCop - go back and reread your AFI; (I don't have a copy at home) but they do NOT mandate warning shots. Warning shots - by definition - are the "use of deadly force" (means likely to inflict grievous bodily injury). I'm not a big fan of them (they tend to quickly destabilize an already unstable situation, but they have their uses).

The law of war is NOT a suicide pact. ALL Fed Circuits allow deadly force without mandating "warning shots" if the situation so warrants it; all services allow you to go immediately to deadly force if needed. You either have a risk-averse Commander; or an attorney who doesn't know what the heck they are talking about.

Look at your AFI; the SROE//RUF; and the Chairman's instruction - you are getting some bad poop.
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Old September 1, 2008, 09:45 PM   #50
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Texas has different rules than the other states.
My opinion doesn't matter much,but I think it is a legal mistake to consider a deadly weapon an instrument of power to control the bad behavior of others and restore order(warning shot) "I got a gun so you better be nice,oh,you don't believe me bang now you better be nice" That is controlling.
I think the legal use(in most cases) deadly force is for when someone is in the process of killing you and you save your life.
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