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Old April 6, 2008, 09:32 AM   #1
syamsunder
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why not metric dimensions

to a junior member like me the inch system seem to be a peculiarity .in all matters of fire arms.

why this industry has not adopted metric system ?
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Old April 6, 2008, 09:39 AM   #2
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Because the major market for civilian firearms sales is the United States of America. It's that simple.
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Old April 6, 2008, 09:51 AM   #3
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And Americans hate the metric system.
"They" tried converting us once upon a time.
A miserable failure.

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Old April 6, 2008, 09:53 AM   #4
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Gee I kinda thought 9mm, 7.62, 5.56, 7mm, 8mm were all metric what do I know.
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Old April 6, 2008, 10:12 AM   #5
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If God wanted us to use the metric system, he'd have given us ten fingers and ten toes.

Besides, it's a lot easier to find a rhyme for "forty-five" in a country-western song than it is to find one for "eleven point two-five millimeter".
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Old April 6, 2008, 10:21 AM   #6
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Old April 6, 2008, 10:28 AM   #7
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Don't worry, the whole country is going metric.... slowly... inch by inch.
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Old April 6, 2008, 10:29 AM   #8
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now I have to dry my keyboard

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Old April 6, 2008, 10:43 AM   #9
Tamara
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John Moses Browning did not use the metric system. If he had wanted us to use it, he would have done so.
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Old April 6, 2008, 11:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Gee I kinda thought 9mm, 7.62, 5.56, 7mm, 8mm were all metric what do I know.
Except that 7.63 & 5.56 are conversions from the English system.

In the US most of our metric 'conversions' have been soft.
The item is simply labeled with the equivalent metric measure, sometimes with minor adjustments.

While we used to use fifths, quarts, and half gallons for liquor, the sizes are now 750 ml, liters, and 1.75 liters.
The 750 is just under a fifth (~0.198 gallon), the liter is ~0.264 gallons, and 1.75 l is ~0.462 gallons.
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Old April 6, 2008, 12:18 PM   #11
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The Metric System was originally a "We hate the English" system. It was developed by the French. It was never adopted by popularity. It was adopted at gunpoint, mandated by law.

If you look at it. Metric isn't that great. The reason the English system has it's unit sizes is for ease of division. With metric, you paint yourself in a corner because of fewer common denominators. With the foot and inches, you can divide by 12, 6, 3, 2, 1. With Metric, you are limited to 10, 5, 2, and 1. You cannot divide into thirds or fourths without using a decimal point, which ADDS complexity. An inch is further divided into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, and so on. Fraction are much easier than decimals

You are also hamstrung by the unit sizes. A Meter is too big and a Centimeter is too small for most "common" measurements that people use every day. Ask people who live in metric countries about a decimeter and they most likely will give you a funny look.

In short, Metric is good for measuring things that are really small and that is about it. Big stuff, both work equally well. "Metric is better" is mental masturbation and that is about it. To change over in the US would cost billions of dollars and for no benefit. Our infrastructure is in the English system. Think about all the effort it would take to convert everything over and in the end, we would be no better off.

I always like to ask the "metric people" Well why don't you convert your electrical system from 50 hrz, 240 volts over to 60 hrz, 120 volts. The answer is the same. It would cost billions and in the end reap no benefit whatsoever.

One great failure of the metric system is with the grad or "decimal degree" it divides a circle into 400 degrees. Guess what, everyone still uses the old system of 360 degrees, even people in metric countries. Seems like people like having lots of common divisors more than claiming superiority in their measuring system.
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Old April 6, 2008, 12:31 PM   #12
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people are just too set in their ways.


the metric system makes soooo much more sense.i hated in in school,but since getting into "the real world",i wish everything would switch overnight.

sure there might be some growing pains for awhile but...
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Old April 6, 2008, 01:07 PM   #13
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ask a metrologist (a person who studies Metrology)

Weapons manufacturer seem to have developed a thier own system of measurements: gauge and caliber. The shotgun gauge system is based on the number of lead balls of a particular gauge that weigh one pound. The 410 seems to have snuck into the mix as it does not follow the gauge system. The 410 is actually the caliber of the barrel.

Caliber is actually the diameter of the barrel (measured at the bottom of the lands in the rifle bore) in units of 1/100 of an inch. How the inch became divided into 100 parts is another complex issues.

Those who are interested in issues related to measurement system should search for the subject Meteorology (scientific study of measurement.) Years ago I was required to take a course on basic metrology. It was probably one of the best course I ever completed.
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Old April 6, 2008, 01:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toybox99615
Caliber is actually the diameter of the barrel (measured at the bottom of the lands in the rifle bore)
Caliber is sometimes measured land-to-land, sometimes groove-to-groove, and sometimes land-to-groove. Except when it's made up out of whole cloth because it sounds good.

(For instance we retain the ".44" number from the old cap'n'ball days, when ".44" caliber revolvers fired .454" lead balls, unlike today when they fire .429" jacketed bullets...)
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Old April 6, 2008, 02:20 PM   #15
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I remember a science teacher I had in the mid 60s who stated that by 1975 the U.S. would be all metric. Right. Probably never happen unless we're invaded by a foreign power. It is simpler once you learn it. We Americans are a stubborn people.
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Old April 6, 2008, 03:32 PM   #16
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Each system has its pros and con's, though i tend to feel that the metric system has more overall pros to the english system.

Quote:
If you look at it. Metric isn't that great. The reason the English system has it's unit sizes is for ease of division. With metric, you paint yourself in a corner because of fewer common denominators. With the foot and inches, you can divide by 12, 6, 3, 2, 1. With Metric, you are limited to 10, 5, 2, and 1. You cannot divide into thirds or fourths without using a decimal point, which ADDS complexity. An inch is further divided into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, and so on. Fraction are much easier than decimals

You are also hamstrung by the unit sizes. A Meter is too big and a Centimeter is too small for most "common" measurements that people use every day. Ask people who live in metric countries about a decimeter and they most likely will give you a funny look.
I'm not sure if i agree. Sure the 12 bases system gives you ONE more factor to divide by - not that big of an advantage. Decimals are usually a lot easier for people to comprehend than fractions, especially since a decimal is essentially a fraction, only the denominator is base 10. 1/2 = 2/4 = 4/8, in the end, it's all 5/10's which is 0.5. Fractions get pretty difficult when they're weird and one has to start adding and subtracting them.

Unit sizes are pretty subjective. I don't think a majority of scientists and engineers who use metrics and are used to them would agree that a meter is 'too big' and a centimeter is 'too small'. And converting in between them is stupifyingly easy. 1mm = .1cm = .001m = .000001km, so on, as opposed to 1/64in = 1/768ft = 1/4055040mi, so on so forth.
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Old April 6, 2008, 04:42 PM   #17
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The Metric System finds its best home in science.
It's always easier there to think in terms of order of magnitude, that is powers of ten.

As far as miles, inches, quarts/gallons and pounds vs. kilometers, centimeters, liters and kilograms go, I find I simply can't think that way in quick practical terms, since I'm too used to the former types of measurements, having grown up with the English System.

As for "changing over to the Metric System" in a broad sense in this country (USA), such that every typical quantitative measure is expressed metrically, it just isn't likely to soon happen; there's no need and no impetus.
And I don't believe that the argument for "standardizing with our NATO allies" holds any attraction for most Americans anymore.
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Old April 6, 2008, 05:15 PM   #18
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The English system of measurement originated with a human scale of reference. If it is in common use today (absent the no longer used Rods, Furlongs, etc.), most people have a good idea of what you are referring to. This is not the case with Metrics.
It works well for scientific calculations, but lacks some handiness for everyday human use. An example is temperature. The large divisions in Celsius are not as useful as Fahrenheit for air or body temperature. Air pressure (psi in your tires, etc) is another area where metric falls short of useful divisions.
Force measurements are another problem. I have torque wrenches with different metric scales, due to metric re-inventing of references. They have even changed the dimensions of the meter at least once since the system was started.
There have been some spectacular failures associated with measurements in Metric. Airplanes not fueled correctly, Spacecraft lost, etc.
Generally, the only items manufactured here in the US with metric dimensions are those intended for sale where laws mandate that(the EU). Or those that combine imported and domestic parts, such as vehicles. Of course, exemptions are made for items they need, such as high tech equipment

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Old April 6, 2008, 05:43 PM   #19
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Some of you may not like metric all that much, but I'd gladly pay the same price for a kilo of something as for a pound. Same goes for a meter (linear or sq.) as for a yard, although that's not as good a deal.

Had Congress mandated that, we'd have gone metric long ago.
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Old April 6, 2008, 05:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
The English system of measurement originated with a human scale of reference. If it is in common use today (absent the no longer used Rods, Furlongs, etc.), most people have a good idea of what you are referring to. This is not the case with Metrics.
It works well for scientific calculations, but lacks some handiness for everyday human use. An example is temperature. The large divisions in Celsius are not as useful as Fahrenheit for air or body temperature. Air pressure (psi in your tires, etc) is another area where metric falls short of useful divisions.
Force measurements are another problem. I have torque wrenches with different metric scales, due to metric re-inventing of references. They have even changed the dimensions of the meter at least once since the system was started.
There have been some spectacular failures associated with measurements in Metric. Airplanes not fueled correctly, Spacecraft lost, etc.
Generally, the only items manufactured here in the US with metric dimensions are those intended for sale where laws mandate that(the EU). Or those that combine imported and domestic parts, such as vehicles. Of course, exemptions are made for items they need, such as high tech equipment

Will
Again, subjective. People who grew up with metrics have a good idea of what you're referring to. For temperature, i know that my body temperature is ~37C, and a comfortable room temperature in the winter is 19 to 19.5C. Again, it's what one grew up with. Water freezes at 0 and boils at 100, easy. And at -40, both Fahrenheit and Celsius agree that it's cold!!!

Air pressure is measured in pascals or kilopascals. Once again, if one is used to using them, it is easy and non-though invoking. And if you don't think that the english units haven't been changed, or how long it took them to even get standardized, you're sadly mistaken. A foot depended on who was telling you was a foot at the time!

The spacecraft and aircraft failures are not a failure of the metric system, and to say so is misleading and downright silly. Those happened because of someones failure to convert. It's a conversion problem. If everyone used the english system -or- the metric system exclusively, they wouldn't have happened.

And if you guys really think about it, even our guns are metrically inclined. That's why we have .45's and not 57/128's, And .38's instead of 3/8's
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Old April 6, 2008, 05:52 PM   #21
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so most the problems are with people who dont know the system well enough,and/or when trying to convert from one system to another?

i fail to see how that has anything to do with the metric system itself.

edit-what Steel said.
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Old April 6, 2008, 06:00 PM   #22
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I am an engineer that works with customers in the US as well as production facilities here, Switzerland, France and Singapore. I also did two years in a metrology lab.

The English system sucks.

While metric is far better it will not be put in place here due to the will of the people, stupid as they may be. Part of freedom is accepting the bad decsisions of others. In the USA the people have the final word. That is not so elsewhere, hence the metric system could be forced through..
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Old April 6, 2008, 06:06 PM   #23
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English is easier to halve in carpentry.
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Old April 6, 2008, 06:44 PM   #24
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FFF system

Personally I like the FFF system, John Moses Browning's Excellent pistol fires the popular 57 Microfurlong ACP cartridge. It sends a 360 Microfirkin slug down range at about 1560 Kilofurlongs per Fortnight.

Incidentally a 230 grain bullet weighs about 1 Millislug
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Old April 6, 2008, 07:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Decimals are usually a lot easier for people to comprehend than fractions, especially since a decimal is essentially a fraction, only the denominator is base 10.
Well, not really. Actually there are a lot of folks out there who have a good bit of confusion any time they have to use base 10, especially in geometry and measuring angles.

As Crosshair pointed out the traditional system of measurement uses several bases which are intuitively more adaptable, especially when people are calculating in their heads. Rather than adapting their new measurement system to the human brain the French revolutionaries who invented metrication tried to adapt it to the way they believed people should calculate on paper in the 1790s. Plus it left us trying to figure out how to deal with dividing things into thirds. See .999999... = 1?

Surprise, surprise. In the 21st century we no longer calculate on paper. Presently our computers use (for various purposes) base 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, 32, 64. We waste millions of nanoseconds a year translating (at the assembly language level) our measurements into this outmoded French paper/pencil measurement system.

Don't you think it would be so much more logical to dump the entire decimal system of counting and teach our kids to do all their arithmetic in bases 12 and 16?
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