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Old March 14, 2008, 12:01 PM   #1
Biff from Oxford
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Join Date: February 1, 2008
Location: The South
Posts: 199
Define contact distances

I have learned from the past that I am usually wrong when I assume so having said that let's go on.

We will be taking our concealed carry course next weekend and this is the shoooting part of it.

(We will use standard sheets of printer paper as targets.

A hit on the paper anywhere is a good hit.

We will shoot at 7 yards, 3 yards, and contact distances.)

We have been shooting from the hip, doing point and shoot, and sticking up and arm shouting then pulling and shooting at almost contact with the back board. So are we doing contact shooting and if not could you describe it.

Once again thanks for any help.
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Old March 14, 2008, 01:29 PM   #2
Scattergun Bob
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contact distance defined


Your on target with the idea that contact distance is within your enemy's reach or near his reach. the important part is that this is generally the distance that the human predator will alert you to his attention. Sometimes being aware of our surroundings will tip us off to threats at a greater distance.

There are many different ways to address this critical position, I am sure that you will receive many different ideas here about drills.

Please keep in mind the following;

At contact distance your enemy is too close, whatever you do it must be done DECISIVELY, AGGRESSIVELY, AND RIGHT NOW. This is often called immediate action.

When it is necessary to attack, strike first with the maximum force available.

And finally, Everyone gets bloody in a knife fight, this includes contact distance gunfights. Be prepared to suffer injury at this distance.

Good luck with your CCW qualification, and stay safe.
First, with the most, WINS!
Regards, Scattergun Bob
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Old March 14, 2008, 08:28 PM   #3
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 84
Tueller Drill

Weapon within 21 feet poses a potentially lethal threat

The "Tueller Drill" is named after its developer, Sgt. Dennis Tueller of the Salt Lake City Police Department. Based on the results of his own experiments, he showed that pretty much anyone, regardless of age, weight or height, could physically close a distance of 21 feet (6 meters) in about 1.5 seconds. A person armed with a knife or club within 21 feet poses a potentially lethal threat.

Teaches: speed draw and fire under stress.
Requires: three people, or two people and a timer.

The Tueller drill is essentially an exercise, under stress, to measure your draw and first shot in terms of distance rather than time. The area that a charging assailant is able to cover in the time it takes you to draw and fire gives you a good idea of what a "safe distance" threshold is.

At the time of the original drill, Gunsite expected a 1.5 second par time for drawing from concealment and firing two shots at a 3-yard target. Tueller found that the average distance an assailant could travel in 1.5 seconds, starting from standing still, was about 21 feet. Any closer, and the assailant might start grappling before the shot can go off.

There have been many arrangements of the Tueller drill. The simplest is to have the "assailant" start back-to-back with the shooter. At the signal, the runner runs and the shooter draws and fires at a 3-yard IPSC target. At the sound of the shot, the runner stops and the distance is measured. If the shot was good (A-zone), the distance counts as the shooter's "score."

A more stressful variation is to have the assailant begin 21 feet away from the shooter, parallel to the firing line. At the signal, the assailant runs toward the shooter and tries to touch her (gently!) on the back as he passes. This is a pass/fail variation.

With ASP Red Guns (plastic guns that are holsterable and drawable), the drill can become a full-contact exercise, with the assailant charging directly at the shooter.

Variations: A useful variation is to have the shooter sidestep while drawing and firing. Moving to the assailant's 45 degree area throws the charger off balance as he/she attempts to correct and gives the shooter significantly more time to draw and fire. The shooter is also out of the line of attack in the probable event that the shots don't stop instantaneously. Other variations are documented here.
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Old March 15, 2008, 10:31 AM   #4
Scattergun Bob
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Close Quater Battle vrs contact distance


GHF has described a great drill for close quarter battle, it is a standard set at Gunsite by Col Cooper many years ago. It has a great elegance about it and 1.5 seconds to respond to a close quarters threat is just enough time. I still base much of my teaching on this premise. However, it is not what you asked about, is it. Perhaps it would do well to explain the concept of space that I think you are working under.

Near to Far;

Contact distance = Your enemy can touch you or with one step "the lunge zone" can touch you. There is no elegance in stance or time base at this distance. The fastest you can respond is still too slow, most often you will not be shooting with two hands, one of your hands will be blocking, pushing, striking, or in some other way distracting your enemy. I believe this is what you were discussing, and of course 21 feet becomes contact distance quickly!
Response Inventory= Save the gun, burn'em, the python rise, forearm and shoot. (these are my personal inventories to this type of threat, if you send me a personal e-mail we can hook up and I will talk with you about them.)

CLOSE RANGE COMBAT - my attempt at the 21 foot rule. That distance at which I can still deliver precision shots under great stress in under 1.5 seconds. The elegance of shooting stance and gun-handling still apply at this range. Many of the instructors that schooled me made me develop the habit of moving against the grain of the attack, some simply had me assume the stance and deliver the rounds.
Of Greater Importance this is were we should start to ID a threat. In my previous e-mail I suggested that predators will ID themselves at contact distance, our job is to ID them at 21 feet or greater. Thru living life in condition yellow, explaining the unusual, checking our 6 o'clock, and my other dodges we have a chance of not allowing predators into our personal space.
Response Inventory= Pick a spot, then pick another, scoot and shoot.

LONG RANGE COMBAT- The distance where I can no longer guarantee that I will hit where I aim.
Response Inventory= Pick the biggest piece of meat, shoot at it. withdraw to a safer place.

These are my personal ideas on setting combat distances, most of my students seem to collect around them. If you can use this great, if you have something better then use that. Looks like you are getting a plan for survival, that's the best part.

Good Luck and be safe!
First, with the most, WINS!
Regards, Scattergun Bob
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Old March 15, 2008, 11:37 AM   #5
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For the purposes of basic firearms training, close contact training is typically presented as firing from a basic retention position between arms length and the 1.5 yard line.

It is a viable skill set, but left at that, lacking. As knowledge, skill, and abilty grow it should/must be integrated with retention, hand to hand, movement, and other complimentary skill sets.
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
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