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Old February 6, 2008, 03:57 AM   #1
BlueDragon
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Whats stronger? a 10mm auto round, or the 357 magnum?

Looking for a 357 magnum or have been, but then i saw a really cheap SW610 in 10mm auto, like what goes to the Glock 20 or Smith Wesson 1076. Just wanted to know what power level would you classify the 10mm and it's stopping power? and how does it stack up to the 357 magnum?
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Old February 6, 2008, 08:04 AM   #2
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Maximum loadings for each cartridge produce similiar amounts of energy (upwards of 700 tf/lbs). The 10mm starts out slightly bigger before expanding. The .357 has a wider selection of bullet styles readily available, since most .40 caliber bullets are designed for reliable feeding in shell chuckers which puts constraints on the design.
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Old February 6, 2008, 08:04 AM   #3
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Quote:
DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"
CONCLUSIONS?
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Old February 6, 2008, 08:08 AM   #4
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at the risk of getting ripped being the 1st responder ( er ah well... I guess 2nd responder )... 10mm generally has a heavier bullet of slightly bigger bore, the 357 Mag holds more powder, so often with the lighter bullet has more velocity...

handloading, of course offers more versatility in both cartridges, but the case size is still smaller on the 10mm, so while handloading you can go with a heavier ( to more equal the 10mm bullet weight ), with the 357, but you can not match the 357's case capacity with the 10mm

without looking at the factory energy levels, IIRC brand for brand / load for load, trying to get bullet weights as close as possible... the 357 has slightly higher factory energy levels than the 10mm, but they are pretty close
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Old February 6, 2008, 08:20 AM   #5
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Socrates posts good data but keep in mind.

1. Double Tap is first and foremost the home of true 10mm ammo.
2. .357 Mag is more widely available in full power loadings.

Mind you, I love the 10mm and am a big Double Tap fan. You have to remember though that there is little need for Mike at DT to come up with 357 loadings when there are plenty out there already, hence the small selection of data for DT 357 rounds.
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Old February 6, 2008, 03:01 PM   #6
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+1 on the advice above - about equal power when the 10mm is pushed. More versatility with the .357 - so many more years of development, guns out there, and ammo made.

Now on the other hand, the 610 is an interesting gun, and I'd sure put one of those in my safe if it came by "cheap" as you said. N-frame smiths are a joy to shoot and own.
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Old February 6, 2008, 03:29 PM   #7
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Something of overkill maybe...
The .357 Magnum only has 3 loads that get into the energy levels of the 10mm and all of these are full-power loads.

The .41 Magnum was added to illustrate the near-ballistic equivilancy between the 10mm and .41 Mag.

Energy Tables for .357 Magnum, 10mm and .41 Remington Magnum
Sorted by energy level

.357 Magnum
Brand.. Caliber Wgt.... Vel..... Energy Type
Fiocchi 357 Mag 148.... 1500.... 739.... SJHP
Dbl Tap 357 Mag 125.... 1600.... 710....
Dbl Tap 357 Mag 158.... 1400.... 688....
Federal 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... HiShokJHP
Fiocchi 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... SJSP
Rem.... 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... GSHP
Speer.. 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... GDHP
Win.... 357 Mag 125.... 1450.... 584.... JHP
Win.... 357 Mag 180.... 1180.... 556.... PGHP
Fiocchi 357 Mag 158.... 1250.... 548.... XTP
Federal 357 Mag 158.... 1240.... 539.... HSHP
Win.... 357 Mag 145.... 1290.... 536.... STHP
Rem.... 357 Mag 158.... 1235.... 535.... SJHP
Rem.... 357 Mag 158.... 1235.... 535.... LSWC
Speer.. 357 Mag 158.... 1235.... 535.... GDHP
Win.... 357 Mag 158.... 1235.... 535.... JHP
Rem.... 357 Mag 180.... 1145.... 524.... SJHP
Rem.... 357 Mag 125.... 1220.... 413.... SJHP
Speer.. 357 Mag 135.... 1000.... 300.... GDHP/SB

10mm/.41 Magnum
Win.... .41 Mag 240.... 1250.... 833.... PTHP
Federal .41 Mag 210.... 1300.... 788.... JHP
Rem.... .41 Mag 210.... 1300.... 788.... JSP
Speer.. .41 Mag 210.... 1300.... 788.... GDHP
Dbl Tap 10mm... 135.... 1600.... 767....
Dbl Tap 10mm... 155.... 1475.... 749....
Federal .41 Mag 250.... 1160.... 747.... CastCore
Dbl Tap 10mm... 165.... 1425.... 744....
Dbl Tap 10mm... 180.... 1350.... 728....
Dbl Tap 10mm... 165.... 1400.... 718....
Federal .41 Mag 180.... 1340.... 718.... Barnes
Dbl Tap 10mm... 180.... 1330.... 707....
Federal .41 Mag 210.... 1230.... 705.... JHP
Dbl Tap 10mm... 200.... 1250.... 694....
Dbl Tap 10mm... 180.... 1300.... 675....
Win.... .41 Mag 175.... 1250.... 607.... STHP
Dbl Tap 10mm... 230.... 1040.... 552....
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Old February 6, 2008, 04:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Something of overkill maybe...
The .357 Magnum only has 3 loads that get into the energy levels of the 10mm and all of these are full-power loads.

The .41 Magnum was added to illustrate the near-ballistic equivilancy between the 10mm and .41 Mag.

Energy Tables for .357 Magnum, 10mm and .41 Remington Magnum
Sorted by energy level
All of the 10mm loads you're comparing are from Double Tap, which are the hottest factory loads available for the cartridge. The .41 Magnum gets alot hotter than ones you've listed:

.41 Magnum
Brand.. Caliber Wgt.... Vel..... Energy Type
Buf Bor 41...... 265..... 1350.. 1072... LWN-GC
Buf Bor 41...... 230..... 1450.. 1074... SWC
Buf Bor 41...... 170..... 1650.. 1028... JHP

The .357 and 10mm max out about the same, and it's only about 3/4's of the energy the .41 Magnum is capable of.
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Old February 6, 2008, 06:11 PM   #9
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I'd go with the 357Magnum. The 10mm is kinda lost it's glammer. Several reasons.............hpg
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Old February 6, 2008, 06:54 PM   #10
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10mm

Actually, not to start a debate the 10mm never lost anything except the inability for inexperienced shooters to feel comfortable in shooting these gems during qualifications in various L.E. Organizations to include federal agencies. Bottomline the true 10mm is like a 41 auto mag. It's SUPERB. That's why it did so phenominally in the FBI test when they went away from 9mm because of the ineffective 147 grain 9mm round they used during that infamous Shootout where two guys had ruger mini 14's and were not stopped soon enough with their duty weapons ammo. The 10mm was what many department followed suite in going to but they had major issue's with small hands and inexperienced shooters shooting well with them because of greater muzzle blast and felt recoil. Basically, the early 90's saw a wave of "ladies" and nonmilitary college grads flooding into LE that just couldn't handle this fine round and they feared that it would carry over into combat which rightfully is a justified concern. As for me, I'd take a Glock 20 or Smith 1076 or 1026 over about any semiauto handgun for combat as well as a 45acp any day of the week and Ive been a Police Officer for 14years and served as an infantry machinegunner in the USMC before that, just my opinion. Then again because of the lack of demand the cost on the ammo if you can find it is outrageous. You could effectively hunt game with a 10mm though.
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Old February 6, 2008, 08:31 PM   #11
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To add fat to the fire, from Buffalobore.com

Quote:
Heavy .357 Magnum

Item No. 19A/20 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.)
Item No. 19C/20 158 gr. JHC (1475 fps ME 763 ft. lbs.)
Item No. 19D/20 125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.)
Quote:
Heavy .41 Magnum
Item No. 16A 265 gr. LWN-GC 1350 fps
1072 ft. lbs.
Item No. 16B 230 gr. SWC (Keith-type)
1450 fps
1074 ft. lbs.
Item No. 16C 170 gr. JHP 1650 fps
Order Now
Quote:
Heavy 10mm
Item No. 21A/20 200 gr. F.M.J. - F.N. (1,200fps/M.E. 639 ft.lbs.)
Item No. 21B/20 180 gr. Speer Uni Core - J.H.P. (1,350fps/M.E. 728 ft.lbs.)
Looks to me like the 10MM=.357 using 170-180 grain bullets, and pretty close using light bullets.

.41 can go places either the 10 or .357 can only dream of, when bullets start getting heavy.

I also suspect in rifles, you could use light .41 bullets, and get rifle like velocities you couldn't with the other two.
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Old February 7, 2008, 06:31 PM   #12
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I have a Glock 20 in 10mm and a Smith & Wesson 686P in .357 Magnum, and for me anyway, I can shoot small groups with the revolver MUCH easier than the semi-auto. I do like the smaller size of the Glock, but if I am hunting it is the Smith every time. The Glock works nicely for self-defense though.
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Old February 7, 2008, 07:25 PM   #13
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In true top end loadings (Buffalo Bore and Double Tap) they're about the same.
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Old February 8, 2008, 03:29 PM   #14
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The .357 ain't what it once was....

But it can be if you handload in a strong enough gun! The original .357 Magnum loading was a 158 SWC that clocked 1550fps from the 8 3/8" S&W. And you can still get that today, by handloading in a strong long barrel revolver.

But you won't get that power level from most factory ammo. Even the "hotter" standard loads are reduced from what they were decades ago, in deference to the fact that the majority of .357s today are medium frame revolvers.

That being said, I love the .357. But I am also a handloader, and I shoot .357 mostly in N frame S&Ws.

Don't have any personal experience with the 10mm, but I will tell you that even if the energy tops some .357 loads, you will have to work a lot harder on a service style autoloader to match a good quality revolver. Revolvers have an advantage with their ability to shoot SWC bullets which translates into increased effectiveness in many situations. On the other hand, only 6 shots, and reloads are a bit slower than with an auto. On the other hand, the barrel is fixed with the sights. But the chambers aren't. On the other hand, (how many hands are we up to?) Mostly it boils down to your personal preference for a revolver or an auto. Except at the outside end of the power range, there isn't going to be a lot of difference that the target can tell.
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Old February 8, 2008, 03:55 PM   #15
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I can't figure out which one I like the best, revolver or semi.
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Old February 9, 2008, 12:43 AM   #16
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How much is a really cheap SW 610? That is usually an expensive gun.

You can always shoot .40's too.
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Old February 9, 2008, 02:18 AM   #17
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ATW,

Thanks for pointing out the Buffalo Bore .41 mag loads. In as much as I don't use my Model 57 as an anti-tank weapon (or a Grizzly Gun) I tend to overlook this brand.

I was working off the initial factory-standard load for the .41 Mag being a [email protected] and showing that the "full house" 10mm is "close enough" to qualify as the .41 Mag of autoloaders. And it will produce almost 50% more recoil over the original load. This is not going to be a load one can easily double-tap a target with!
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Old February 9, 2008, 02:39 AM   #18
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The 10mm and .357Mag are very similar in top end performance. Close enough that I wouldn't pick a clear winner. In terms of availability & price, the .357Mag is going to come out on top.

The .41 Mag is far above either round although there are some lightly loaded .41 Mag loadings that are very similar in performance to the 10mm.

This chart is a little busy but you can get some idea of the performance levels of factory ammunition for the rounds plotted.
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Old February 9, 2008, 02:42 AM   #19
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If this was 1985, I'd vote for the 10mm Auto hands down.

The reason? This was the era of the first batch of Norma loads. They were 200 truncated cone FMJ. Hotter than the hinges of hell.

They were so hot, in fact, that Harlene over at Dornaus & Dixon recommended that I stop using them. We figured out a responsible reload when my Bren Ten had to go back for service.

The slide came back, sheared off the rowel of my hammer and it glanced off my face.

Like I said, hot.

Norma quickly distributed another batch, a tad attenuated. To differentiate one load from another, Norma put a little stamp on the primer cup that looked to me like "NP" but with the letters tightly together.

Mr. Dornaus completely rebuilt my pistol and it worked flawlessly. I never fired a full house load in it again.

I also owned a Delta Elite and a Double Eagle in 10mm Auto. There was still controversy in the gun rags about the recoil assemblies "beating themselves to death" in Colt pistols. Both of mine worked great, no excessive wear or peening.

However, we are now into a different era for the 10mm Auto. The bullets were lighter, and loaded down. The best was the 175 grain Silver Tip,which was actually geared more for hunting. Dick Metcalf was the lone voice on that round. I owned a box, but lost interest after I found out that the bullets would not be sold separately for reloaders.

So we are now in modern times. It would appear to me that both the .357 and the 10mm now throw a bullet about the same weight, that being in the 125 to 175 grain weight. As a reloader, we're talking about bullets that might as well be twins. Depending on the load, they drop the same size deer.

Now, if you want to go by published data, my belief is that the .357 probably leads the pack.

However, if you really want to settle this debate in the real world, let's get some old Norma rounds or some reloading info from 1985.

Hands down, the 10mm will win.

Yeah, yeah, it's a ringer, I know.
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Old February 9, 2008, 10:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
The 10mm and .357Mag are very similar in top end performance. Close enough that I wouldn't pick a clear winner. In terms of availability & price, the .357Mag is going to come out on top.
And the fact that a revolver chambered in 357 Mag can also shoot 38 wadcutter loads doing 500 fps (or a bit less even) makes for impressive versatility and great fun in a single package.

In the end, I certainly wouldn't want to get hit with either (or a .22, for that matter).
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Old February 9, 2008, 01:12 PM   #21
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Comparing factory loads out of a 4" rev. and hodgdon longshot reloads in a semi auto the 10mm has 30% more energy than .357 mag.

If you like the 10 auto.. I personally don't like it as reloading for semi autos is much more error prone than reloading for revolvers because of issues with bullet seatback, non supporting chambers, Glock etc.
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Old February 9, 2008, 04:28 PM   #22
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I suppose nobody has mentioned how handy moonclips are. There isn't nor ever will be a better speedloader.
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Old February 10, 2008, 08:43 AM   #23
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sissie Norma rds

'Handloading' gives the 10mm props.


Customer 10mm feedback: "...the 135g Nosler 1756fps (6" Glock = 1821fps)...the 155g Gold Dot 1503fps (6" Glock = 1569fps)...for the 180g XTP load I got 1372fps (6" Glock = 1428fps)...your 200g+P+...1327fps (6" Glock = 1378fps) from the 5" pipe..."


Thank you Tourist for popping in with real-life experience ('cause some folks don't believe just how HOT! those originals really were).

10mm = hobby cartridge still. But nice in the 610.
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Old February 10, 2008, 08:47 AM   #24
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on the matter of 41 Magnum

It SMASHES the 10mm; absolutely NO comparison.
Whatsoever.
At all.
Zip.
Zero.
Nada.
Not
even
close....
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Old February 10, 2008, 11:08 AM   #25
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To me this becomes a question of launching platform and performance.

With an 8 3/8" pre-27 I can toss 6 158 lead SWC at 1500 fps by over current book max loads but loads that originally were considered safe when the gun came out.

With a 5" 1911 10mm I can toss 8 200 grn FMJ to 1200 with over current book max loads but loads that originally were considered safe when the gun came out.

So which is better and stronger?

The one you can actually hit with and are willing to carry.
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