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Old November 29, 2007, 07:12 AM   #1
alizeefan
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Israeli carry effective ?

I am due to start work with a new employer on monday but I have just been made aware of the fact that their company policy is magazine in gun but empty chamber ( isn't political correctness wonderful ). I realize that most people, including myself, believe the proper way to carry is chamber " occupied " but, given this is not going to happen, is the so called israeli method of racking the slide on the draw a viable solution in a real world incident. I must confess I am 99% sure I won't be turning up for work.
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:16 AM   #2
Don P
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M/T chamber

Where are you going to be working that you are so sure you will not show up for work? Type of job, level of perceived danger. Just curious.
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:23 AM   #3
GalilARM
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are you a tactical marketplace enforcer?


really though....What type of gun are you carrying? Some guns you could have a round chambered and the gun would look no different than if the pipe was empty. Im not advocating you getting fired or anything, but that sounds like a dumb rule that doesnt need to be followed.
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:28 AM   #4
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The position is uniformed security mostly providing protection for atm technicians but also alarm responses. Obviously this involves access to considerable cash sums in both bank and off site atm's ( some of which are contained in " bunkers " ) where offenders in the past have been known to gain access through the roof and waiting patiently for security to turn up and disarm alarm and open the safe for them. To my mind it is the obviously " ambush " type attack that cash work tends to involve which means that if I am to have any chance I need a loaded gun. So far as it being a rule I can sort of ignore I should have mentioned this is in australia where if you don't sign your weapon out/in properly you can be charged and fined $10000 personally and the owner $40000 per offence and you can't do force on force even with airsoft as under WA law they are firearms and you cannot point a firearm at another person other than protection of self or other.
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:33 AM   #5
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Another thought

When you arrive on the scene why not rack the slide loading the pipe so you are ready and when leaving empty the pipe. Sounds like the company may have had a shooting or possible ND/AD in the past and this is why the empty chamber rule. Just my .02
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:43 AM   #6
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Id say as long as you sign your weapon in and out properly, you should be okay to do whatever you want with it in the in-between time. Chamber a round. I'm sure your boss is just covering his ass. Is this a law that says no loaded chamber? Or just company policy? If its a law thats one thing, but if its just a rule your boss made up then......Again, did you say what kind of gun it is? I bet if you could get a double/single action pistol you could talk your boss into letting you keep it saftied with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Its sad, but if someone was desperate enough, youd probably be the first target. If your boss wont let you carry with one in the pipe, he probably doesnt have much concern for your safety. I dont know how easy this is for you to do, but consider getting a job with a different agency if he continues to not allow you to take maximum measures for self defense.
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:49 AM   #7
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22-Mag : I appreciate the suggestion but Australia is so hysterically anti gun that if a member of the public or even the technician i'm guarding see's this and reports me it will be instant dismissal and if the cops find out I can be charged with " going armed in public to create fear or distress " or some B.S like that. I have been in the industry for a decade and take pride in my abilities and study through books and dvd's the work of kelly mccann, andy stanford, clint smith etc who most people in australia have never heard of. I know you guys have a battle with your anti's but being able to simply OWN a semi auto let alone be allowed to carry it for self defense is pure fantasy here. I am very envious and am actually trying to convince the wife to emigrate to the US, the only free country left. galilARM: sorry, we are being issued glocks in either .40 ( as with previous employer ) or 9mm. Just for a bit of useless info this is such a police state that the police decide your issue make. Security officers can only use glock auto pistols or I believe S&W revolvers. You are correct in that it is company policy and not law but the removal of pistol to load chamber if not for "real" probably constitutes a crime.
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:51 AM   #8
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Oh wow they give you a .22 mag to defend yourself with? And you cant chamber a round? Thats BS my friend, sorry youre gettin screwed like that. If the law is that against loaded guns then I'd say just suck it up and carry Israeli. Just be extra vigilant and aware of your surroundings, otherwise you make a good victim.

The good ol US of A....you can keep a pistol in your pocket, an AK in your truck, and a shotgun under the bed......here we are complaining that we cant buy full autos whenever we want. Sounds like we've got it easy.

Stay safe mate
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:55 AM   #9
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Ouch!

i here ya on down under. It truely SUCKS!. I work for a armored car company here and we to, have to deal with state and company policies. We recently had 2 ATM techs shot and killed in the Philly, Pa. area. They unfortuneately chose not ot wear there vests that day and and they paid the ultilmit price
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:02 AM   #10
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Vest's ? What are they . I bet you can see were i'm going with this, you guessed it, there illegal outside police or criminals .
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:02 AM   #11
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Mistaken

GalilARM, he was answering me by my name 22-mag, not what they expect him to carry
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:05 AM   #12
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Vests

I take it armed guards are not permitted to own or use body armor. That totaly sucks.:barf: We are STRONGLY encouraged to buy and wear body armor and the company even puts $100 bucks toward our vest. As hot as it gets and UNcomfy they can be I wear mine.
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:11 AM   #13
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hahahaha oh wow oops. Its 7am here and I've been up ALL night working on a research paper.

I cant believe I didnt catch that. In one ear and out the other I guess. JFK style.

Ok time for bed. Wait, now I have to go to class.....
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:12 AM   #14
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vests

There was talk about trying to introduce vests following a gaurd being killed in sydney a couple of years ago but it seems to have gone by the wayside amd if they were issued they would have to be an issued item not something a security officer could own. after all, the police here don't wear vest's as a matter of course but carry them in the boot (sorry that's trunk to you guys ) and retrieve them if the need arises.
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:17 AM   #15
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They are fools

Stupidity should hurt!. I realize your gun laws are so different and basicly banned ownership be the general public, but keeping a vest in the boot and puting it on when THEY think they may need it? A real good way to wind up dead. I'm quite sure the criminals did NOT surrender there guns as did the law bideing people.
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:29 AM   #16
alizeefan
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22-Mag

You are right on the money. The incredible thing that I just can't get my head around is that it seems the people in this country don't WANT the right to self defense. This goes way beyond the gun issue as if you keep a baseball bat next to your bed (like I do) because home invasions are a daily occurence for obvious reasons ( helpless victims ) you will be prosecuted because by having the bat there you showed PRE-MEDITATION to commit an attack . This is not your pro gun rhetoric but actual fact and has happened over and over again. The ridiculous laws don't surprise me ( they just piss me off ) but the general acceptance by the public astounds me.
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:36 AM   #17
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Truely a shame

Grab the wife pack a bag. Ther's plenty of room up here in the states. It amazes me that way back when the Brits sent all the UNWANTED to the new world and did the same down under. I guess we could call it there peinal colonies. Tuff choice trying to leave what we call our home land. 15 years ago I spent 6 months in Europe, mostly in England and as nice as it was there and in all the places I stayed and visited I could not see me staying and not returning to the states. Guess I'm saying I couldn't make the move
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:42 AM   #18
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If you train a lot, you can draw, rack the slide and point the gun really fast. Not as fast as with a round in the chamber, of course, but still fast enough for most situations. I wanted to suggest cocking the hammer, so the slide will be easier to operate...with a Glock that's impossible though
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Old November 29, 2007, 08:57 AM   #19
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I'm coming ( maybe )

Believe me mate I am really trying to convince her, plus I hear Florida is quite nice you also have that no retreat thing in your laws regarding defending yourself in your home . Yep, sounds like a mighty fine place to spend the rest of my days. As far as training racking the slide that's going to be interesting. We apparently are going to do quarterly requals ( although the law only requires 2 per year ) but I could almost gaurentee it will be chambered round, draw and fire for requals just not on the street making the situation worse because your training one method and carrying another. It has to be remembered that as I can't buy my own glock 17 or 23 to practice with the only shooting I will now get is my requals
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Old November 29, 2007, 09:05 AM   #20
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How about using a revolver?
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Old November 29, 2007, 09:13 AM   #21
alizeefan
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revolver

That would definately solve the problem but the company has gone done the glock path and i'm stuck with it ( I love the glock incidently ). By law you can only carry a company firearm and that tends to be glock. This is because no one imports revolvers to any great degree anymore. Most police forces here have gone to glock and competition shooters use the few remaining auto's that are still legal. All old police revolver stocks were either destroyed or sold off overseas so parts for those companies still issueing model 10 revolvers are difficult to come by.
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Old November 29, 2007, 09:59 AM   #22
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Carry it ready to rock and roll. If you get into a situation and use it and the company finds out about it, just say, oops!
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Old November 29, 2007, 10:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
plus I hear Florida is quite nice
aw come on now, everyone knows Iowa is best for all living. Best hunting, easy CC laws, low taxes. Lots of country type homes, everyone here is friendly. FLA gets hot like 9 months out of the year, i have damily there, they tell me it gets so humid and hot they stay inside and run the A/C unit 9 months out of the year.... We wear coats here, easy to CC a .45 semi
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Old November 29, 2007, 12:51 PM   #24
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Well, if everyone is finished crying in their beer, may we move on to some sort of relevant discussion?

Exactly what is the problem, here? I've carried a G-21 in C-3 for the past 5 years. During practice sessions I always draw and fire using a Mossad draw. I do dozens of practice Mossad draws every week. Before I start any range session I'll empty a magazine full of A-Zoom snap caps from Mossad; and, thereafter, I switch to live rounds and do the same thing all over again.

Mossad ain't slow; it isn't inaccurate. The last guy I had to pull a pistol on didn't even get to clear his belt before he realized that if he didn't instantly freeze he was going to get double-tapped out of his shoes. When properly executed a Mossad draw can be completed in, something less than, 1.5 seconds. (That's from the holster, to squaring up the back of the slide, and firing the first two rounds.)

There is only one real disadvantage to a Mossad draw: You (usually) need to use two hands - That's it, period! The entire nation of Israel carries in C-3 and uses a Mossad draw. The British Secret Services and SAS, also, did exactly the same thing for decades.

For anyone to say that he isn't going to take a job because he can't live with the inconvenience and presumed danger of a Mossad draw from C-3 is just plain silly. What such a person is really saying is that he doesn't know how to handle himself in a CQB gunfight.

Sorry, hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings; but, I thought these things need to be said. You approach and withdraw from the target zone in, 'Condition Yellow'. If, for any reason, you are alarmed then you should immediately go into, 'Condition Orange'. At this point, your pistol should already be out and fully charged; and you should, also, be looking for available cover.

Can you protect yourself from someone with a sawed-off shotgun who suddenly jumps out in front of you and sticks the shotgun in your face? No, you can't; and it doesn't matter how or what you're carrying if that should happen. There's, also, no adequate pistol defense against a rifleman who chooses to snipe you from 80 meters out. Chambered or unchambered carry isn't going to do you any good in either of these situations.

The greatest liabilities I see in the OP's comments are, (1) Not being allowed to practice, and (2) not being allowed to wear a bullet-resistant vest. If I were to decide NOT to take a security job in assbackwards Australia, it would be, principally, because of these two reasons and nothing else.
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Old November 29, 2007, 02:06 PM   #25
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Sending you out there with an empty chamber? I sure hope the BGs don't come at you with one in the chamber and their guns drawn and aimed. That would be so unsporting.
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