'New Bohemians' member Shot & Killed through door - Page 3

Eghad · September 6, 2007, 11:41 PM

If someone is kicking your door in at 4:00 am after warning him you will shoot you have a pretty good idea of where your target is and have identified it. Unless it would make you feel better to open the door so you can shoot after seeing him.

Reasonable people dont go around kicking in a persons door in at 4:00 am in the morning. How do you know whats on the other side of the door, a drunk musician or a violent criminal? We can all say what should have been done in retrospect. You dont have that luxury when someone is trying to kick your door in while your wife is screaming.

GalilARM · September 7, 2007, 03:08 AM

Justme,

Were not glorifying this man's "mistake". He didnt make a "mistake". He reacted like any sane, rational person in distress would have acted. He did exactly what I would have done, and exactly what most of the men on this forum would have done. Maybe you would have cracked the door open to make sure it wasnt your neighbors crazy daughter or something, but as for the rest of us.....

Its disrespectful to call this a "mistake". The man took a life in defense of his own. Thats never a "mistake" in my book.

Justme · September 7, 2007, 03:22 AM

It sounded on the 911 tape that the guy and his wife considered it a mistake. My point is that fear can cause us to make mistakes and we need to be careful or end up with that guilt on our conscious.

mattro · September 7, 2007, 07:10 AM

justme

the 911 audio confirms what many of us have been saying. The man and his wife DID identify the intruder, they did feel they were in immenent danger.

I dont think the guys actions need to be picked apart.

Double Naught Spy · September 7, 2007, 07:13 AM

I agree that the guy obviously did not intend to shoot the Bohemian. However, he did get the desired result. The Bohemian stopped trying to kick in the back door. He shot to stop with a warning shot and the stop was attained.

mattro · September 7, 2007, 07:40 AM

The "do nothing but call 911" guys, can even pick apart someone defending themselves against a drugged up puke trying to beat in their doors and windows at 4am.

With great fervor, they search out 1000 reasons to not pull your gun, let alone pull the trigger.

Even when justified, and removing a pos from this world, they are critically judged.

it feeds the woosification of amercia... :barf:

Justme · September 7, 2007, 08:22 AM

Quote:

I agree that the guy obviously did not intend to shoot the Bohemian

But he did. Isn't that the definition of a mistake? Fear can make anyone of use make a mistake, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake.

I bet money that if this guy had it to do over again he would have waited at least until the bohemian came through the door. A cautionary tale that we should learn from, so we aren't someday wishing we had made a different decision the way this poor guy is.

It's bad enough to kill a person on purpose, much worse to kill someone by accident.

Thumper · September 7, 2007, 10:46 AM

So you guys dismiss out of hand the possibility that someone might say something to mitigate the horror of what had just happened?

He said he didn't mean to shoot the guy, right? Even though he was aiming at the door the guy was kicking?

Where is a warning shot fired, guys? At the risk of overstating the ridiculously obvious, a warning shot is not fired at the perp.

Stop being disingenuous. It's transparent and subtracts from your credibility.

Double Naught Spy · September 7, 2007, 08:52 PM

I just don't know. Where is a warning shot fired, Thumper? None of my classes teach warning shots and the general public often believe that warning shots are to be fired high. They have seen it done many times on TV, only the homeowner was in a situation to fire a warning shot from inside his home.

So where do you fire a warning shot to scare a person outside your home who is trying to come through the door. Let's see, will it be effective if you fire through the roof? Nope. How about into the carpet? Probably not. Since the guy can't see you, you need to fire in a place where he will see there is evidence you actually have and gun and are shooting. His focus was on the door so the homeowner shot through the door.

I personally think warning shots are not a good thing and I don't think it was a good idea in this situation at all. However, the mistake was still with the Bohemian, not with the homeowner. The homeowner may not have intended to kill the Bohemian, but it was the Bohemian that forced the situation and created the need for the use of lethal force. Had the Bohemian not been beating on the windows and trying to kick in the back door, then the homeowner would not have shot him, either intentionally or not.

The homeowner can learn from this incident. The Bohemian cannot.

Mistake or not, the most critical factor is that the homeowner and his wife are safe and are safe as a result of their actions against a violent man who was acting in an aggressive manner and who did NOT respond to repeated very commands and warnings. It is a bottom line sort of analysis, but is our goal of self defense to assure that we remain safe and keep our loved ones safe?

**JohnKSa** · September 8, 2007, 12:55 AM

I sent an email to FoxNews requesting that they change the caption on the video.

While the link in Double Naught Spy's post still goes to the version with the old caption, searching the FoxNews website now returns a version with a new caption.

OLD VERSION
When an East Dallas man heard someone trying to break down his back door, he fired his gun once high, trying to scare the intruder off. But the bullet accidentally killed his next door neighbor. Hear the emotional call made by the shooter and his wife to 911 operators.

NEW VERSION
"When an East Dallas man heard someone trying to break down his back door, he fired his gun. The bullet hit and killed his neighbor's boyfriend, who was on the other side. Hear the emotional call made by the shooter and his wife to 911 operators."

I received the email response within about 4 hours of the email I sent. Not bad...

Avenger11 · September 8, 2007, 06:45 PM

Gosh,
Isn't the internet great, where you can anonymously judge and question anothers response to a terrifying situation and label it a mistake! No one has said the man should be glorified, but could we show a little compassion for a man justly protecting his family and property? He will have to live for the rest of his life knowing he took a life, and with the question of could he done something differently?
Seems like wer'e getting confused as to who was the victim and who was the perpetrator?

KodiakCoastie · September 8, 2007, 08:24 PM

If the alternative of this would of been the Bohemian breaking through and killing the couple then in no way was this a mistake. If this had been a convicted felon than the media would not have put such a spin on it. Honestly if some one is breaking down my door how am I sapose to know if it is one guy or five. This homeowner/husband has a duty and responsibility to protect his family from harm and that is what he did and NO ONE SHOULD JUDGE HIM FOR THAT! If any thing he should sue the estate holder of the deceased and have his door replaced and receive an award for damages.

Silentarmy · September 8, 2007, 11:24 PM

Is it Monday Morning already?

Justme · September 9, 2007, 12:08 AM

An honest mistake is a mistake non the less. Does it mean you have judged someone harshly if you declare that you believe they made an honest mistake, and that from that mistake well could learn something?

I think it is wrong to discharge a firearm in a direction where you are not sure of your target and sure of the background should you miss the target. Shooting through a door certainly fits into that category.

gak1 · September 9, 2007, 01:20 AM

Imo the mistake was drunkenly beating down your neighbors back door at 4am. Anything that happens is your own fault. He coulda' fell off the porch and broke his neck, if the homeowner had a dog he coulda' gotten bit, instead he got shot. Next case.

3 weelin geezer · September 9, 2007, 09:56 AM

Soooo, what really happened? Why was he there? Why was he beating on the door then, trying to kick it in? My heart would be racing if I heard my door getting bashed in in the middle of the night since I can't think of anyone I call a friend that does that. Thats what the little button next to it is for. It commands me to go see who is standing outside the entry portal of my house. Whether they are allowed in or not is a different story. If the key didn't fit in the door knob, its probably not your house. Try next door.

Again, Soooo...what really happened? No one seems to know yet so how can anyone make judgements yet? Someone beating my door would scare the carp out of me too. Espeicially at night when I am asleep. However! it might just be that nut next door comeing over to look for her red parrot that I supposedly stole, tied up, and put under my bed! Problem is that the red parrot ceased to be about 8 years ago though it keeps speaking from the hereafter somehow. It feels soooo good not to have to taking aspirin all the time!

wayneinFL · September 9, 2007, 04:59 PM

"So you guys dismiss out of hand the possibility that someone might say something to mitigate the horror of what had just happened?"

I don't. There are cases in which the shooter in a totally justified shooting doesn't want to admit to himself and say it was a mistake, because he doesn't want to believe he just took a human life.

this happened one of two ways-

The homeowner didn't want to kill the intruder, but knew the intruder ould not see the gun and be scared off by the deterrant effect, and fired the gun to scare the guy off, shooting him accidently.

Or-

The homeowner still didn't want to shoot the intruder, but felt the man was about to come through the door and shot him. He was so upset that he didn't want to believe he had shot him so he said it was an accident.

Either way he has opened himself up to civil liability for an accident, even though this is a case of an otherwise justifiable shooting.

I feel for the man as he did the best in the circumstances, likely the same thing I might have done. There is a lot of information on what to say after a shooting, and I think it's best to leave out most of the details as to the why and how of the shooting.

darrentxs · September 9, 2007, 05:33 PM

Side note - The homeowner that fired through the door is also a regionaly well known and extremely talented musician. His stage name is Smokey Logg. He's a Texas style blues guitarist/singer.

KodiakCoastie · September 9, 2007, 07:44 PM

It is quite clear that the Bohemian was not going to just walk away. The homeowner told him he had a gun but the Bohemian continued. The Homeowner showed he was reluctant to shoot the possible intruder by only trying to warn him off who knows if he would of had the Fortitude to do what was needed to be done once the home was breached. After seeing the face of someone that he was going to shoot he might of hesitated and that could of cost his life. I feel things happen for a reason and even if the homeowner might of not intended for that paticular result that was possibly the only solution for him to make it out alive. Mistakes have BAD results it is apparant that this result if even unintended solved the problem which hence does not make it a mistake.

What if their where no Hypothetical situations?

SpectreBlofeld · September 9, 2007, 08:02 PM

Embarrassed to say that I cracked up at one line from the 911 call - "Oh, man.... I didn't think he was that tall."

Poor decision-making from the homeowner, there, firing his warning shot anywhere than at the ground.

No culpability on his part, however, as the other guy made even poorer decisions.

Double Naught Spy · September 10, 2007, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Again, Soooo...what really happened? No one seems to know yet so how can anyone make judgements yet? Someone beating my door would scare the carp out of me too. Espeicially at night when I am asleep. However! it might just be that nut next door comeing over to look for her red parrot that I supposedly stole, tied up, and put under my bed! Problem is that the red parrot ceased to be about 8 years ago though it keeps speaking from the hereafter somehow. It feels soooo good not to have to taking aspirin all the time!

The Bohemian was seen by the shooter and his wife through the window before he was shot at the door. They knew it wasn't the neighbor looking for a parrot. They communicated to the guy that he had to stop and to leave. He didn't. They were fearful that he was trying to make entry into the home.

September 6, 2007, 11:41 PM	#51
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	If someone is kicking your door in at 4:00 am after warning him you will shoot you have a pretty good idea of where your target is and have identified it. Unless it would make you feel better to open the door so you can shoot after seeing him. Reasonable people dont go around kicking in a persons door in at 4:00 am in the morning. How do you know whats on the other side of the door, a drunk musician or a violent criminal? We can all say what should have been done in retrospect. You dont have that luxury when someone is trying to kick your door in while your wife is screaming. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

September 7, 2007, 07:10 AM	#54
mattro Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 224	justme the 911 audio confirms what many of us have been saying. The man and his wife DID identify the intruder, they did feel they were in immenent danger. I dont think the guys actions need to be picked apart. __________________ My Battle Rifle has no sporting purpose.

September 7, 2007, 07:40 AM	#56
mattro Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 224	The "do nothing but call 911" guys, can even pick apart someone defending themselves against a drugged up puke trying to beat in their doors and windows at 4am. With great fervor, they search out 1000 reasons to not pull your gun, let alone pull the trigger. Even when justified, and removing a pos from this world, they are critically judged. it feeds the woosification of amercia... :barf: __________________ My Battle Rifle has no sporting purpose.

September 7, 2007, 10:46 AM	#58
Thumper Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 1,507	So you guys dismiss out of hand the possibility that someone might say something to mitigate the horror of what had just happened? He said he didn't mean to shoot the guy, right? Even though he was aiming at the door the guy was kicking? Where is a warning shot fired, guys? At the risk of overstating the ridiculously obvious, a warning shot is not fired at the perp. Stop being disingenuous. It's transparent and subtracts from your credibility. __________________ Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher

September 8, 2007, 12:55 AM	#60
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,986	I sent an email to FoxNews requesting that they change the caption on the video. While the link in Double Naught Spy's post still goes to the version with the old caption, searching the FoxNews website now returns a version with a new caption. OLD VERSION When an East Dallas man heard someone trying to break down his back door, he fired his gun once high, trying to scare the intruder off. But the bullet accidentally killed his next door neighbor. Hear the emotional call made by the shooter and his wife to 911 operators. NEW VERSION "When an East Dallas man heard someone trying to break down his back door, he fired his gun. The bullet hit and killed his neighbor's boyfriend, who was on the other side. Hear the emotional call made by the shooter and his wife to 911 operators." I received the email response within about 4 hours of the email I sent. Not bad... __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

September 7, 2007, 03:08 AM	#52
GalilARM Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Location: TX Posts: 267	Justme, Were not glorifying this man's "mistake". He didnt make a "mistake". He reacted like any sane, rational person in distress would have acted. He did exactly what I would have done, and exactly what most of the men on this forum would have done. Maybe you would have cracked the door open to make sure it wasnt your neighbors crazy daughter or something, but as for the rest of us..... Its disrespectful to call this a "mistake". The man took a life in defense of his own. Thats never a "mistake" in my book.

September 7, 2007, 03:22 AM	#53
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	It sounded on the 911 tape that the guy and his wife considered it a mistake. My point is that fear can cause us to make mistakes and we need to be careful or end up with that guilt on our conscious.

September 7, 2007, 07:13 AM	#55
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	I agree that the guy obviously did not intend to shoot the Bohemian. However, he did get the desired result. The Bohemian stopped trying to kick in the back door. He shot to stop with a warning shot and the stop was attained.

September 7, 2007, 08:52 PM	#59
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	I just don't know. Where is a warning shot fired, Thumper? None of my classes teach warning shots and the general public often believe that warning shots are to be fired high. They have seen it done many times on TV, only the homeowner was in a situation to fire a warning shot from inside his home. So where do you fire a warning shot to scare a person outside your home who is trying to come through the door. Let's see, will it be effective if you fire through the roof? Nope. How about into the carpet? Probably not. Since the guy can't see you, you need to fire in a place where he will see there is evidence you actually have and gun and are shooting. His focus was on the door so the homeowner shot through the door. I personally think warning shots are not a good thing and I don't think it was a good idea in this situation at all. However, the mistake was still with the Bohemian, not with the homeowner. The homeowner may not have intended to kill the Bohemian, but it was the Bohemian that forced the situation and created the need for the use of lethal force. Had the Bohemian not been beating on the windows and trying to kick in the back door, then the homeowner would not have shot him, either intentionally or not. The homeowner can learn from this incident. The Bohemian cannot. Mistake or not, the most critical factor is that the homeowner and his wife are safe and are safe as a result of their actions against a violent man who was acting in an aggressive manner and who did NOT respond to repeated very commands and warnings. It is a bottom line sort of analysis, but is our goal of self defense to assure that we remain safe and keep our loved ones safe?

September 8, 2007, 06:45 PM	#61
Avenger11 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2007 Posts: 311	Gosh, Isn't the internet great, where you can anonymously judge and question anothers response to a terrifying situation and label it a mistake! No one has said the man should be glorified, but could we show a little compassion for a man justly protecting his family and property? He will have to live for the rest of his life knowing he took a life, and with the question of could he done something differently? Seems like wer'e getting confused as to who was the victim and who was the perpetrator?

September 8, 2007, 08:24 PM	#62
KodiakCoastie Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2007 Posts: 12	If the alternative of this would of been the Bohemian breaking through and killing the couple then in no way was this a mistake. If this had been a convicted felon than the media would not have put such a spin on it. Honestly if some one is breaking down my door how am I sapose to know if it is one guy or five. This homeowner/husband has a duty and responsibility to protect his family from harm and that is what he did and NO ONE SHOULD JUDGE HIM FOR THAT! If any thing he should sue the estate holder of the deceased and have his door replaced and receive an award for damages.

September 8, 2007, 11:24 PM	#63
Silentarmy Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2007 Location: Bountiful, Utah Posts: 355	Is it Monday Morning already? __________________ "No one will Ever buy that PLASTIC gun!" Steve Gallenson, Early 1980's "Those Who live by the sword get Shot by those of us who don't" "What we learn from History is that we do not learn from History!"

September 9, 2007, 12:08 AM	#64
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	An honest mistake is a mistake non the less. Does it mean you have judged someone harshly if you declare that you believe they made an honest mistake, and that from that mistake well could learn something? I think it is wrong to discharge a firearm in a direction where you are not sure of your target and sure of the background should you miss the target. Shooting through a door certainly fits into that category.

September 9, 2007, 01:20 AM	#65
gak1 Member Join Date: July 19, 2006 Posts: 52	Imo the mistake was drunkenly beating down your neighbors back door at 4am. Anything that happens is your own fault. He coulda' fell off the porch and broke his neck, if the homeowner had a dog he coulda' gotten bit, instead he got shot. Next case.

September 9, 2007, 09:56 AM	#66
3 weelin geezer Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2004 Posts: 438	Soooo, what really happened? Why was he there? Why was he beating on the door then, trying to kick it in? My heart would be racing if I heard my door getting bashed in in the middle of the night since I can't think of anyone I call a friend that does that. Thats what the little button next to it is for. It commands me to go see who is standing outside the entry portal of my house. Whether they are allowed in or not is a different story. If the key didn't fit in the door knob, its probably not your house. Try next door. Again, Soooo...what really happened? No one seems to know yet so how can anyone make judgements yet? Someone beating my door would scare the carp out of me too. Espeicially at night when I am asleep. However! it might just be that nut next door comeing over to look for her red parrot that I supposedly stole, tied up, and put under my bed! Problem is that the red parrot ceased to be about 8 years ago though it keeps speaking from the hereafter somehow. It feels soooo good not to have to taking aspirin all the time!

September 9, 2007, 04:59 PM	#67
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	"So you guys dismiss out of hand the possibility that someone might say something to mitigate the horror of what had just happened?" I don't. There are cases in which the shooter in a totally justified shooting doesn't want to admit to himself and say it was a mistake, because he doesn't want to believe he just took a human life. this happened one of two ways- The homeowner didn't want to kill the intruder, but knew the intruder ould not see the gun and be scared off by the deterrant effect, and fired the gun to scare the guy off, shooting him accidently. Or- The homeowner still didn't want to shoot the intruder, but felt the man was about to come through the door and shot him. He was so upset that he didn't want to believe he had shot him so he said it was an accident. Either way he has opened himself up to civil liability for an accident, even though this is a case of an otherwise justifiable shooting. I feel for the man as he did the best in the circumstances, likely the same thing I might have done. There is a lot of information on what to say after a shooting, and I think it's best to leave out most of the details as to the why and how of the shooting.

September 9, 2007, 05:33 PM	#68
darrentxs Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2007 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 401	Side note - The homeowner that fired through the door is also a regionaly well known and extremely talented musician. His stage name is Smokey Logg. He's a Texas style blues guitarist/singer.

September 9, 2007, 07:44 PM	#69
KodiakCoastie Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2007 Posts: 12	It is quite clear that the Bohemian was not going to just walk away. The homeowner told him he had a gun but the Bohemian continued. The Homeowner showed he was reluctant to shoot the possible intruder by only trying to warn him off who knows if he would of had the Fortitude to do what was needed to be done once the home was breached. After seeing the face of someone that he was going to shoot he might of hesitated and that could of cost his life. I feel things happen for a reason and even if the homeowner might of not intended for that paticular result that was possibly the only solution for him to make it out alive. Mistakes have BAD results it is apparant that this result if even unintended solved the problem which hence does not make it a mistake. What if their where no Hypothetical situations?

September 9, 2007, 08:02 PM	#70
SpectreBlofeld Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Posts: 304	Embarrassed to say that I cracked up at one line from the 911 call - "Oh, man.... I didn't think he was that tall." Poor decision-making from the homeowner, there, firing his warning shot anywhere than at the ground. No culpability on his part, however, as the other guy made even poorer decisions.