Effective range of .223?

Dtmoss14 · August 21, 2007, 08:57 PM

When does it start to falter?

mountainclmbr · August 21, 2007, 09:14 PM

The velocity can hold up to above speed of sound out to 500 yards or so. I think it depends on the rifle for the accuracy part of the equation. My Mini-14 is only good for 6 inches at 100 yards with 55 gr FMJ and 3-4 inches for 75gr. That makes it only good for 100-200 yards depending on load.

There are High-Power match rifles used out to 500-600 yards in the AR-15 configuration. Never fired one of these, but it seems that it is more the limitations of the individual rifle than the round.

Trapper L · August 21, 2007, 10:13 PM

If you take a 55 gr Sierra HPBT and run it out at 3000'ps it has just about 1090lbs of energy. At 200 yds it has shed about 1000'ps and has about half of the energy. At 300 yds it is moving at 1650'ps prox and has energy around the 350 lbs mark. Depending on what you are shooting at determines if that is acceptable. For rabbits, 300 yds is acceptable. For deer size animals, I'd stay under 150 yds or expect to lose wounded deer. Putting the bullet on the target is one thing and the 223 is quite capable of doing that at yardage. Reliably killing an animal is a different thing.

Dtmoss14 · August 21, 2007, 10:53 PM

Target shooting a Savage 10FP

MisterPX · August 22, 2007, 01:36 AM

What are you shooting at? Effective range against paper is a whole different animal than againt bad guys.

120mm · August 22, 2007, 02:40 AM

That's a fairly complex issue. I'm assuming you are interested in the "break point" where the .223 really tears up people versus just makes a .22 cal hole in flesh. As the .223 needs velocity (approx. 2700 fps) to do the majority of it's damage, here is a table I stole from "The Ammo Oracle" which specializes in all things .223.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#fragrange

Read the link if you are interested.

20" Barrel M193 (55 gr.) 200m M855 (62gr) 150m
16" Barrel M193 150m M855 95m
14.5" Barrel M193 100m M855 50m
11.5" Barrel M193 45m M855 15m

als54 · August 22, 2007, 07:57 AM

I think the military lists some were around 400 meters (from a M-16)... IMHO that's kind of a bit way out there?

jmorris · August 22, 2007, 09:19 AM

If your just target shooting your Savage, you should have fun and then tell us. You should have good results at 300 and with the right conditions do OK to 600yds or so. But thats paper, the good thing is it's easy to clean.

lilgdad · August 22, 2007, 09:46 AM

Many of my army buddies say effective combat range for man size target is "no more" than 200 meters, meaning less. Don't know if that helps but my $0.02.

Art Eatman · August 22, 2007, 10:57 AM

It'd be sorta helpful to have some idea of the usage and intended target...

SFAIK, a .223 ain't effective on whales, worth a darn...

, Art

gedenke · August 22, 2007, 11:15 AM

In my personal experience, with an M-16, I was able to put 10 rounds in the chest of a man size target at 500yds. Not sure exactly what my group was, just that I hit the black. But then again, that was a 5.56 (which I've read is dimensionally identical to a .223, but loaded for higher pressure), and I was having a good day.

davlandrum · August 22, 2007, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Many of my army buddies say effective combat range for man size target is "no more" than 200 meters

Wow - I retired from the Army and I never heard that...

Did they mean they couldn't hit a man-sized target at more than 200 meters?

Would I expect a 5.56 to "one-shot, dead-right-there" an enemy threat at 300 meters? No, but if I hit him center mass, I sure ruined his day to say the least.

And 300 meters with standard issue sights was do-able even with the M16A1 with the old style ammo. By do-able, I mean I was able to do it consistently even in Basic Training with no prior rifle shooting experience.

The Tourist · August 22, 2007, 11:36 AM

Admittedly, my memory on this is fuzzy, but isn't there a "NATO spec" on this very topic?

It's something about the ability to puncture a regulation helmet at 500 yards.

That assumes that not only does the round have to have a certain down-range power, but it also has to be able to hit a helmet.

You guys remember this?

Edit: This might help.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855

Scorch · August 22, 2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Many of my army buddies say effective combat range for man size target is "no more" than 200 meters, meaning less.

Be serious. The effective range of a 5.56mm Nato round out of a M16A1 was 500 meters back in 1976, so it hasn't gotten shorter. If anything, with the new heavier bullets it has gotten longer. But for sake of argument, let's say 500 meters.

For varminting it's about 350 yds, for target work, about 600 yds. All depends on intended use.

STLRN · August 22, 2007, 04:36 PM

There have been troops that have killed people out to around 800 meters shooting 5.56. Much of the problem of lack of "kill" had allot more to do with a lack of hitting. The standard issue M855 has QC issues and as Crane has shown at around 500 meters even a center hold on a target may not yield a hit under controlled conditions, let alone you through in the variables of shooting in combat. Mk262 has shown good effects on combat even in cases where the impact was well beyond where it fragments, so even a through and through 22 caliber hole in someones chest can be quite effective.

hank327 · August 22, 2007, 07:12 PM

As I recall from my time in the Army, the maximum effective range of the M16A1 with the 55 grn M193 ball round was 460 meters.

tbtrout · August 22, 2007, 08:53 PM

500 meters at a point target and 850 meters at an area target. That is what the PMI's at Parris Island drilled into our heads.

taylorce1 · August 22, 2007, 09:55 PM

Quote:

There have been troops that have killed people out to around 800 meters shooting 5.56. Much of the problem of lack of "kill" had allot more to do with a lack of hitting.

I think you hit this one center mass.
I've killed coyotes at 300+ yards with a .223. They weren't always a bang flop but some of them were.

USMCG_HMX1 · August 22, 2007, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbtrout

500 meters at a point target and 850 meters at an area target. That is what the PMI's at Parris Island drilled into our heads.

+1 with tbtrout, only mine were screaming it to us on Edson Range ... which was a meters course so they gave us extra points. I had expert in the bag and the bonus points weren't needed.

Kris

piercfh · August 22, 2007, 10:27 PM

In the group we shoot with a guys son shoots out to 1000 with his Remington 700 in .223. Everyone shoots .308 except him, and the little rifle hangs with the everything else. I'll admit the kid shoots way better than I do from 100 to 1000 so .223 is definitely effective at punching paper. I'm pretty sure he's loading his own too!

ARmasterzach · August 22, 2007, 10:43 PM

How much would a 223 drop every 100 yards? I was trying to hit a steel plate about 1'x2' about 400yds with my ar with a red dot and I couldnt even tell if I was getting close.

jmorris · August 23, 2007, 08:56 AM

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculati...traj_card.html

AR go to the above page and enter in your load information and print out the card at the end, you'll be set for next time. FWIW 400 is 26"+- and 700yds with a 223 is like a 22lr at 300yds (153" +- yeah thats 13 feet).

Art Eatman · August 23, 2007, 10:21 AM

Don't quote me: My memory has it that after Vietnam, the Army started testing for a bullet that would penetrate the then-new Kevlar helmet at a range of either 500 or 600 meters; don't recall which.

I believe that's when the 63-grain bullet began to be used.

Art

joeranger · August 23, 2007, 12:01 PM

I just bought a bunch of 68gr black hills ammo. Even though the velocity is a little lower, it should push the range a little, right? (vs, 55gr and 62gr)

MythBuster · August 23, 2007, 12:09 PM

AR's shooting the .223 round with 90 and 95 grain bullets are winning the 1,000 yard service rifle matches now.

August 21, 2007, 08:57 PM	#1
Dtmoss14 Member Join Date: August 17, 2007 Posts: 47	Effective range of .223? When does it start to falter?

August 21, 2007, 09:14 PM	#2
mountainclmbr Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: On a mountain in the Colorado Rockies Posts: 966	The velocity can hold up to above speed of sound out to 500 yards or so. I think it depends on the rifle for the accuracy part of the equation. My Mini-14 is only good for 6 inches at 100 yards with 55 gr FMJ and 3-4 inches for 75gr. That makes it only good for 100-200 yards depending on load. There are High-Power match rifles used out to 500-600 yards in the AR-15 configuration. Never fired one of these, but it seems that it is more the limitations of the individual rifle than the round. __________________ "The unfettered free market has been the most radically destructive force in American life in the last generation." - Hillary Clinton

August 22, 2007, 07:57 AM	#7
als54 Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 215	I think the military lists some were around 400 meters (from a M-16)... IMHO that's kind of a bit way out there? __________________ Glock 17 Gen 3 Glock 26 Gen 4 S&W 642 Taurus PT145 Millennium PRO

August 22, 2007, 11:15 AM	#11
gedenke Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2007 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 381	In my personal experience, with an M-16, I was able to put 10 rounds in the chest of a man size target at 500yds. Not sure exactly what my group was, just that I hit the black. But then again, that was a 5.56 (which I've read is dimensionally identical to a .223, but loaded for higher pressure), and I was having a good day. __________________ There's an art...to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss!

August 22, 2007, 04:36 PM	#15
STLRN Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 1999 Location: USA Posts: 1,163	There have been troops that have killed people out to around 800 meters shooting 5.56. Much of the problem of lack of "kill" had allot more to do with a lack of hitting. The standard issue M855 has QC issues and as Crane has shown at around 500 meters even a center hold on a target may not yield a hit under controlled conditions, let alone you through in the variables of shooting in combat. Mk262 has shown good effects on combat even in cases where the impact was well beyond where it fragments, so even a through and through 22 caliber hole in someones chest can be quite effective. __________________ God truly fights on the side with the best artillery

August 21, 2007, 10:13 PM	#3
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	If you take a 55 gr Sierra HPBT and run it out at 3000'ps it has just about 1090lbs of energy. At 200 yds it has shed about 1000'ps and has about half of the energy. At 300 yds it is moving at 1650'ps prox and has energy around the 350 lbs mark. Depending on what you are shooting at determines if that is acceptable. For rabbits, 300 yds is acceptable. For deer size animals, I'd stay under 150 yds or expect to lose wounded deer. Putting the bullet on the target is one thing and the 223 is quite capable of doing that at yardage. Reliably killing an animal is a different thing.

August 21, 2007, 10:53 PM	#4
Dtmoss14 Member Join Date: August 17, 2007 Posts: 47	Target shooting a Savage 10FP

August 22, 2007, 01:36 AM	#5
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	What are you shooting at? Effective range against paper is a whole different animal than againt bad guys.

August 22, 2007, 02:40 AM	#6
120mm Member Join Date: August 10, 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 32	That's a fairly complex issue. I'm assuming you are interested in the "break point" where the .223 really tears up people versus just makes a .22 cal hole in flesh. As the .223 needs velocity (approx. 2700 fps) to do the majority of it's damage, here is a table I stole from "The Ammo Oracle" which specializes in all things .223. http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#fragrange Read the link if you are interested. 20" Barrel M193 (55 gr.) 200m M855 (62gr) 150m 16" Barrel M193 150m M855 95m 14.5" Barrel M193 100m M855 50m 11.5" Barrel M193 45m M855 15m

August 22, 2007, 09:19 AM	#8
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	If your just target shooting your Savage, you should have fun and then tell us. You should have good results at 300 and with the right conditions do OK to 600yds or so. But thats paper, the good thing is it's easy to clean.

August 22, 2007, 09:46 AM	#9
lilgdad Junior Member Join Date: August 20, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1	Many of my army buddies say effective combat range for man size target is "no more" than 200 meters, meaning less. Don't know if that helps but my $0.02.

August 22, 2007, 10:57 AM	#10
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	It'd be sorta helpful to have some idea of the usage and intended target... SFAIK, a .223 ain't effective on whales, worth a darn... , Art

August 22, 2007, 11:36 AM	#13
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	Admittedly, my memory on this is fuzzy, but isn't there a "NATO spec" on this very topic? It's something about the ability to puncture a regulation helmet at 500 yards. That assumes that not only does the round have to have a certain down-range power, but it also has to be able to hit a helmet. You guys remember this? Edit: This might help. http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855

August 22, 2007, 07:12 PM	#16
hank327 Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 106	As I recall from my time in the Army, the maximum effective range of the M16A1 with the 55 grn M193 ball round was 460 meters.

August 22, 2007, 08:53 PM	#17
tbtrout Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 234	500 meters at a point target and 850 meters at an area target. That is what the PMI's at Parris Island drilled into our heads.

August 22, 2007, 10:27 PM	#20
piercfh Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2006 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 183	In the group we shoot with a guys son shoots out to 1000 with his Remington 700 in .223. Everyone shoots .308 except him, and the little rifle hangs with the everything else. I'll admit the kid shoots way better than I do from 100 to 1000 so .223 is definitely effective at punching paper. I'm pretty sure he's loading his own too!

August 22, 2007, 10:43 PM	#21
ARmasterzach Member Join Date: July 6, 2007 Location: Perrin Texas Posts: 83	How much would a 223 drop every 100 yards? I was trying to hit a steel plate about 1'x2' about 400yds with my ar with a red dot and I couldnt even tell if I was getting close. __________________ I cant carry my pocket knife to school caus its considered to be a weapon, but a brand new sharpened pencil is perfectly ok. I dont need either though cause im the biggest guy at my school.

August 23, 2007, 08:56 AM	#22
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculati...traj_card.html AR go to the above page and enter in your load information and print out the card at the end, you'll be set for next time. FWIW 400 is 26"+- and 700yds with a 223 is like a 22lr at 300yds (153" +- yeah thats 13 feet).

August 23, 2007, 10:21 AM	#23
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Don't quote me: My memory has it that after Vietnam, the Army started testing for a bullet that would penetrate the then-new Kevlar helmet at a range of either 500 or 600 meters; don't recall which. I believe that's when the 63-grain bullet began to be used. Art

August 23, 2007, 12:01 PM	#24
joeranger Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 423	I just bought a bunch of 68gr black hills ammo. Even though the velocity is a little lower, it should push the range a little, right? (vs, 55gr and 62gr)

August 23, 2007, 12:09 PM	#25
MythBuster Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2007 Posts: 629	AR's shooting the .223 round with 90 and 95 grain bullets are winning the 1,000 yard service rifle matches now.