.45 acp fmj penetration on human targets

Freetacos · November 15, 2006, 09:16 PM

Does .45 ball typically go straight through bad guys in a frontal shot situation or does it stay in the body?

bennnn · November 15, 2006, 09:40 PM

Read up on over-penetration.. Webster should have a picture of a .45 fmj....
Of course, you did not mention range so get ready to hear all about the differences.....
And as to straight through, what about bones? they're everywhere.

**JohnKSa** · November 15, 2006, 09:40 PM

If you look in the General Discussion subforum, there is a Gunshot thread by Odd Job who is a radiologist.

He has spent a good deal of time providing a very informative presentation on gunshot wounds.

The short answer is that it's very hard to predict what's going to happen when a person is shot.

buckster · November 15, 2006, 10:10 PM

stays better than a 9mm or a 40. The mass, the lower fps and Hydra shocks [hollow points] helps that situation.

bennnn · November 15, 2006, 10:21 PM

Quote:

The short answer is that it's very hard to predict what's going to happen when a person is shot.

I agree to some extent, it depends on a lot of things. Range may be first, shot placement second... Maybe some one should start a poll if all they want is opinions for a general answer,, but the question here is .45 BALL, am I wrong?

Anything else is off topic..........

BTW, good guys have soft tissue too....

Freetacos · November 15, 2006, 10:25 PM

"BTW, good guys have soft tissue too...."

Umm, why would you want to shoot a good guy?

shield20 · November 15, 2006, 10:58 PM

I read an article by Chuck Taylor where he said he shot BGs with .45 ball, only a couple penetrated completely but were recovered inside the clothing on the exit. Here is more from him on .45 ball...

"Were I to "play the percentages," or base my opinion on a more narrow examination such as (for example) a review of the files of the law enforcement agencies with which I have been associated or draw from my own personal experiences alone, I could legitimately state that .45 ACP 230 gr. "hardball" fired from a M-1911 Colt auto, is 100% effective!

How? Simple -- in all of the departmental shootings in which it was used, it worked. And because in five of the seven pistol fights in which I have been a participant, I used a .45 with ball ammo -- and it worked. I won all five with my first shot, my opponent collapsing before I could fire again. Five center hits, five one-shot stops, five DOS (dead on the scene).
...

"

**JohnKSa** · November 15, 2006, 11:32 PM

Take a look here.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=214744

People are not a homogeneous medium, so what is hit makes a tremendous difference in how much penetration there will be. In general, all of the typical SD calibers with ball ammunition will penetrate sufficiently in soft tissue to make an exit very likely--if no bones are hit. If bones are hit (and it goes without saying that there are a lot of them in the human body) it's anybody's guess as to what's going to happen from there. Odd Job says it far better than I do and includes pictures and X-Rays to help explain.

Greg_Dunn · November 15, 2006, 11:45 PM

I took a 230 gr FMJ once and it entered my body, exited and embedded into the wall intact with minimal deformity.

The range was muzzle contact, I had more pain from powder burns than from bullet wound.

FMJ definitely in my case overpenetrated.

bennnn · November 16, 2006, 12:01 AM

JohnKSa,,, I agree with you,

Quote:

as to straight through, what about bones? they're everywhere-ben

Quote:

If bones are hit (and it goes without saying that there are a lot of them in the human body) it's anybody's guess as to what's going to happen from there.-JohnKSa

freetaco, you said this,,,

Quote:

Does .45 ball typically go straight through bad guys in a frontal shot situation or does it stay in the body?

That was intended as a reference to your generalization of .45 ball going through BG's, and to highlight the fact that Good guys get hit by .45 ball too.....
Read the post by Greg_Dunn....
Greg, are you a

Quote:

bad guy

FS2K · November 16, 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

I took a 230 gr FMJ once and it entered my body, exited and embedded into the wall intact with minimal deformity

Thank you very much for sharing your experience Mr. Dunn. I know this is not my post, but I for one appreciate you taking the time out to share your experience with us.

**JohnKSa** · November 16, 2006, 01:17 AM

Here are penetration figures showing what is expected penetration in soft tissue (no bone). 9mm numbers are included just for fun. Note that both calibers penetrate to similar depths--about 2.3 FEET.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/imag...30gr%20FMJ.jpg

http://www.firearmstactical.com/imag...0US%20M882.jpg

If you're talking any typical defensive handgun caliber & scenario, the penetration of FMJ ammo out of a typical SD caliber is sufficient to fully penetrate a human from any reasonable angle if a bone is not hit. If a bone IS hit, (which is very likely) then there's no way to make a prediction.

bennnn · November 16, 2006, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Does .45 ball typically go straight through bad guys in a frontal shot situation or does it stay in the body?

buckster mentioned hydra-shok, but the OP said ball.
So, back to the .45 ball.........

From those pics it look's like the .45 just kept going, while the 9 mm took a few breaks and cut out of work early....Thanks for the .45 plug...

It was a simple question, but there is no simple answer..
Better to just let the thread die out with a simple, incomplete answer.

**JohnKSa** · November 16, 2006, 10:04 PM

Quote:

... hydra-shok would be off topic, case closed...

I apologize for jumping on you, I assumed that you were responding to me because you quoted me in your post--I just couldn't quite figure out the basis for your objection.

I'll touch things up to remove anything that might reflect negatively on you.

Greg_Dunn · November 16, 2006, 11:08 PM

I wasn't a BG last time I checked, but FMJ will overpenetrate, especially at close ranges, unless it hits major bony structures and loses too much velocity.

I have also seen them pulled from bodies during autopsies, so there are a lot of variable obviously that would have an effect on the performance of a given round at a given time.

It sure as hell hurts though.

CobrayCommando · November 17, 2006, 12:24 AM

.45 ACP has about a 50 50 chance of tumbling, supposedly. If it yawed in the body and tumbled I think it would probably come to rest in the skin of the persons back, but thats just conjecture. I think .45 ball has a tendency to stay in the target more then 9mm for some reason though.

Shooter 973 · November 17, 2006, 05:42 PM

I witnessed an pair of BG's get shot while fleeing on a motorcycle. The shot was made at about 20 yards by a Marine Sgt. One shot was fired from his 45acp at them while they were picking up speed on their get-away! The shot went in the back of the fellow on the back of the bike and out the chest of the fellow driving it! They went down and were both dead by they time they were approached. One round of GI 45 ammo, 2 VC dead. Worked just fine!!

CobrayCommando · November 17, 2006, 05:44 PM

Awesome! Wouldn't see that with hollowpoints.

Pucker · November 17, 2006, 05:45 PM

Now lets see that happen with a beretta...

Rugged · November 17, 2006, 06:03 PM

my dad took two .45acp ball in the center chest from about 6-7 feet in the 50's.

One penetrated all the way through, it was a low shot and it punctured his left lung on the bottom and came out the back. He's very lucky that he got good treatment. Sounds like a scary surgery NOW, let alone 56 years ago.

The second bullet, (was actually the first round fired) stopped on his breast bone.

I have NO idea what he was shot with, possibly RN lead? I don't know what was around back then. But my dad is still kickin' and definitely wiser. He told me "son, if you're getting robbed at gunpoint, and you don't have a gun, keep your mouth shut." sounds like a good plan.

My uncle also got hit with a .45 AD in vietnam, it shattered his femor, he's 2" shorter on one side.

as a side note, the only person in my family to die from a gunshot wound took one .22 lr to the head at about 15'.

**JohnKSa** · November 17, 2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Now lets see that happen with a beretta...

Well, besides the fact that there is a Beretta in .45ACP, if you had looked at my post earlier in this thread, you would see that a 9mm FMJ bullet penetrates to an almost identical depth in soft tissue as a .45ACP FMJ bullet when you compare the military loadings of the two calibers.

CobrayCommando · November 18, 2006, 01:24 AM

Thats right, it might even penetrate more if it doesn't yaw.

Para Bellum · November 19, 2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

The second bullet, (was actually the first round fired) stopped on his breast bone.

That's what scares me aboout the .45 and makes me carry "thinner" stuff like .357 Sig/Mag; 7,62x25 (Tokarev) and 9x19mm etc...

bennnn · November 20, 2006, 09:17 PM

JohnKSa, we're bound to have different opinions again.....

But if those reading just base everything on your posted test results and
this;

Quote:

you would see that a 9mm FMJ bullet penetrates to an almost identical depth in soft tissue as a .45ACP FMJ bullet

You did say almost right....??

The OP asked if

Quote:

.45 ball typically go straight through

and we both agree that bones change everything,,, so I'm going to go back to the Original Question and answer,,,, YES.....

But, because we have agreed to disagree, I have to quote you again, in the most respectful way, and say that,,,,:::

Quote:

The short answer is that it's very hard to predict what's going to happen when a person is shot.

I agree with that 100% .

I'm curious though, can you PM me with any links to a study of .45HP vs 9mm..?

**JohnKSa** · November 20, 2006, 11:18 PM

Correct--"almost".

If you look at the scale on the graphs, the 9mm actually penetrates a bit farther in soft tissue than the .45ACP, but really not an appreciable amount.

And also correct--if the bullet hits a bone it's virtually impossible to predict accurately what's going to happen.

November 15, 2006, 09:16 PM	#1
Freetacos Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2006 Location: California Posts: 441	.45 acp fmj penetration on human targets Does .45 ball typically go straight through bad guys in a frontal shot situation or does it stay in the body?

November 15, 2006, 09:40 PM	#2
bennnn Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: almost far enough south.. Posts: 978	Read up on over-penetration.. Webster should have a picture of a .45 fmj.... Of course, you did not mention range so get ready to hear all about the differences..... And as to straight through, what about bones? they're everywhere. __________________ I owe a lot to the man who first cradled this rifle in his hands... wish I could tell him thanks.-- mdshooter

November 15, 2006, 09:40 PM	#3
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	If you look in the General Discussion subforum, there is a Gunshot thread by Odd Job who is a radiologist. He has spent a good deal of time providing a very informative presentation on gunshot wounds. The short answer is that it's very hard to predict what's going to happen when a person is shot. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

November 15, 2006, 10:10 PM	#4
buckster Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 674	45 acp stays better than a 9mm or a 40. The mass, the lower fps and Hydra shocks [hollow points] helps that situation.

November 15, 2006, 11:32 PM	#8
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	Take a look here. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=214744 People are not a homogeneous medium, so what is hit makes a tremendous difference in how much penetration there will be. In general, all of the typical SD calibers with ball ammunition will penetrate sufficiently in soft tissue to make an exit very likely--if no bones are hit. If bones are hit (and it goes without saying that there are a lot of them in the human body) it's anybody's guess as to what's going to happen from there. Odd Job says it far better than I do and includes pictures and X-Rays to help explain. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association? Last edited by JohnKSa; November 16, 2006 at 10:06 PM.

November 15, 2006, 10:25 PM	#6
Freetacos Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2006 Location: California Posts: 441	"BTW, good guys have soft tissue too...." Umm, why would you want to shoot a good guy?

November 15, 2006, 10:58 PM	#7
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	I read an article by Chuck Taylor where he said he shot BGs with .45 ball, only a couple penetrated completely but were recovered inside the clothing on the exit. Here is more from him on .45 ball... "Were I to "play the percentages," or base my opinion on a more narrow examination such as (for example) a review of the files of the law enforcement agencies with which I have been associated or draw from my own personal experiences alone, I could legitimately state that .45 ACP 230 gr. "hardball" fired from a M-1911 Colt auto, is 100% effective! How? Simple -- in all of the departmental shootings in which it was used, it worked. And because in five of the seven pistol fights in which I have been a participant, I used a .45 with ball ammo -- and it worked. I won all five with my first shot, my opponent collapsing before I could fire again. Five center hits, five one-shot stops, five DOS (dead on the scene). ... "

November 15, 2006, 11:45 PM	#9
Greg_Dunn Member Join Date: October 4, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 36	I took a 230 gr FMJ once and it entered my body, exited and embedded into the wall intact with minimal deformity. The range was muzzle contact, I had more pain from powder burns than from bullet wound. FMJ definitely in my case overpenetrated. __________________ Greg Dunn Ranger Gunleather Handcrafted concealment leather for the working man

November 16, 2006, 01:17 AM	#12
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	Here are penetration figures showing what is expected penetration in soft tissue (no bone). 9mm numbers are included just for fun. Note that both calibers penetrate to similar depths--about 2.3 FEET. http://www.firearmstactical.com/imag...30gr%20FMJ.jpg http://www.firearmstactical.com/imag...0US%20M882.jpg If you're talking any typical defensive handgun caliber & scenario, the penetration of FMJ ammo out of a typical SD caliber is sufficient to fully penetrate a human from any reasonable angle if a bone is not hit. If a bone IS hit, (which is very likely) then there's no way to make a prediction. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association? Last edited by JohnKSa; November 16, 2006 at 10:09 PM.

November 16, 2006, 11:08 PM	#15
Greg_Dunn Member Join Date: October 4, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 36	I wasn't a BG last time I checked, but FMJ will overpenetrate, especially at close ranges, unless it hits major bony structures and loses too much velocity. I have also seen them pulled from bodies during autopsies, so there are a lot of variable obviously that would have an effect on the performance of a given round at a given time. It sure as hell hurts though. __________________ Greg Dunn Ranger Gunleather Handcrafted concealment leather for the working man

November 17, 2006, 12:24 AM	#16
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	.45 ACP has about a 50 50 chance of tumbling, supposedly. If it yawed in the body and tumbled I think it would probably come to rest in the skin of the persons back, but thats just conjecture. I think .45 ball has a tendency to stay in the target more then 9mm for some reason though.

November 17, 2006, 05:42 PM	#17
Shooter 973 Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2001 Location: Home town of John M. Browning, Utah Posts: 499	45 fmc penetration... I witnessed an pair of BG's get shot while fleeing on a motorcycle. The shot was made at about 20 yards by a Marine Sgt. One shot was fired from his 45acp at them while they were picking up speed on their get-away! The shot went in the back of the fellow on the back of the bike and out the chest of the fellow driving it! They went down and were both dead by they time they were approached. One round of GI 45 ammo, 2 VC dead. Worked just fine!! __________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

November 17, 2006, 05:44 PM	#18
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Awesome! Wouldn't see that with hollowpoints.

November 17, 2006, 05:45 PM	#19
Pucker Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2006 Posts: 144	Now lets see that happen with a beretta...

November 17, 2006, 06:03 PM	#20
Rugged Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2006 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 241	my dad took two .45acp ball in the center chest from about 6-7 feet in the 50's. One penetrated all the way through, it was a low shot and it punctured his left lung on the bottom and came out the back. He's very lucky that he got good treatment. Sounds like a scary surgery NOW, let alone 56 years ago. The second bullet, (was actually the first round fired) stopped on his breast bone. I have NO idea what he was shot with, possibly RN lead? I don't know what was around back then. But my dad is still kickin' and definitely wiser. He told me "son, if you're getting robbed at gunpoint, and you don't have a gun, keep your mouth shut." sounds like a good plan. My uncle also got hit with a .45 AD in vietnam, it shattered his femor, he's 2" shorter on one side. as a side note, the only person in my family to die from a gunshot wound took one .22 lr to the head at about 15'. __________________ "GET RID OF THAT NICKEL-PLATED SISSY PISTOL AND GET YOURSELF A GLOCK!!!"

November 18, 2006, 01:24 AM	#22
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Thats right, it might even penetrate more if it doesn't yaw.

November 20, 2006, 11:18 PM	#25
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	Correct--"almost". If you look at the scale on the graphs, the 9mm actually penetrates a bit farther in soft tissue than the .45ACP, but really not an appreciable amount. And also correct--if the bullet hits a bone it's virtually impossible to predict accurately what's going to happen. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?