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Old February 19, 2007, 09:11 AM   #51
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rickster said:
Luckily, for the officer, the suspect wasn't thinking clearly or had no idea how to use a gun or he could have made the gun functional again. Nothing against the officer but when he got the gun back, it should have been instinct to tap, tilt, rack. He would have been back in business.
Sure, but by the point that the cop recovered his weapon he'd taken more than a bit of pummeling. I suspect it's considered a bit too risky to inflict actual physical injury on cadets for the sake of teaching them to be able to clear stoppages in any circumstance.

Deaf Smith said:
He is lucky the other guy, while strong, was not a very skilled fighter himself.
Well, he was, in the sense that he was a boxer, though I'll concede that that particular skill-set was not entirely relevant in this situation, in that boxers tend not to (train to) encounter much smaller guys with pepper sprays and handguns in the ring.

On balance, I think it was actually a good thing the cop had a semi-auto, since the perp managed to wrest it away. The only thing that stopped the perp from turning the weapon on the cop was the fact that it had suffered a stoppage. Now, as Double Naught Spy noted earlier, you can stop a revolver from firing by grabbing the cylinder, and if that had been the problem, once the perp had gained control of the weapon, there would have nothing to stop him from using it on the cop.

And, you know, at the end of the day the cop did all right, in that he managed to stay conscious (and alive) and in (regained) control of his sidearm until the backup arrived. The power of a police force doesn't (and shouldn't, in my opinion) so much rest in its members all being crack operators with enough firepower to single-handedly level half a block, but in its ability to coordinate, and call down overwhelming numbers of its members to a single location in short order. I'd rather the police were reticent about the (threatened) use of force, simply because I don't like the idea of being pulled over for merely speeding and then finding myself lying cuffed on my stomach with the state patrolman holding a gun on me while he waits for his backup to arrive.
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Old February 19, 2007, 09:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
The cop simple did not have much H2H skills. As a result he defaulted to his training (i.e. no training.) Never tried to take his legs out, never tried to ground fight him after they both fell to the ground, never really tried to efficivly punch, and I guess his gun either failed, or he failed to get it to work. He is lucky the other guy, while strong, was not a very skilled fighter himself.
Hey guys... looks like we have Chuck Norris posting here! The problem with most of these gun forums is that we tend to forget that being a cop does not usually mean 1. Gun enthusiast and/or 2. Hand to Hand Fighting Specialist. I'd go as far as to say that only BASIC shooting skills and BASIC hand to hand skills are all that is required for a police officer to demonstrate before passing. A gun is just a tool for most officers and while their lives depend on it, they are not any more obcessed with their guns than a chef is with his knife. Many posters also forget that being a cop involves other skills and duties and unless they are SWAT, much of their time is not involved in training.

Deaf Smith, your post is ridiculous. "Never tried to take his legs out, never tried to ground fight him after they both fell to the ground, never really tried to efficivly punch?" With the force disparity, do you really think that cop had a chance hand to hand against that guy. Maybe you are over confident or seriously under estimate trained boxers. Boxers are tough guys who can take lots of punishment. Its not like a tournament where you go for the point and then stop. I think it was clear in the video that if the cop went hand to hand, he would have been a dead cop. One other thing is going hand to hand and striking a perp is a great way to get sued for excessive force, especially if you leave bruises. This may not really be the case but watch what some scumbag lawyer can do. Thanks for you analysis Chuck Norris :barf: .

The main problems here were
1. Lack of experience (calling for back up early on, cuffing the suspect first, only shooting once rather than until the threat is over)
2. Possible lack of stronger "non-lethal" weapon such as a Taser
3. Unrealistic expectation from the pepper spray
4. Possibly not enough gun or poorly performing rounds
5. No back up in the form of a partner or other car

The cop was able to get out of a situation that got really ugly really quick. I'd say that he did okay given the circumstances.
4. Massive size discrepancy
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
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Old February 19, 2007, 10:38 AM   #53
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He was asking for it!

With a name like Shannon, there's no win this guy could ever win a fight!
You have the right to be offended.
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Old February 19, 2007, 11:24 AM   #54
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i take it none of you read the comments to the video or you'd probly be angrier. but i guess you shouldnt get angry at 12 year olds posing as 16 year olds so they can post on the intraweb.

i hope the cop in the video got a taser.

and, even if he was well trained, there is a point where shear size and determination, and possibly intoxication, takes away 95% of the effectivness of that training. i guess the other 5% kept this cop alive. maybe he could have done more, but he came out alive and the bad guy has the hole in him.
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Old February 19, 2007, 11:48 AM   #55
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From my comfortable arm chair, I am thinking that dropping the magazine on a handgun that will not fire without it, letting the bad guy take the gun (i.e., he has stopped punching you), and while he is busy trying to figure out why he can't shoot you with your own gun, you pull out your backup .454 Rohrbaugh and teach him some manners.

Gotta run. Crimestoppers is on tv.
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Old February 19, 2007, 12:42 PM   #56
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Ahhhhhhh, alright now. All comfortable in my recliner. Let's remember here that, above all else, it was a happy ending. The officer went home. That's all that really matters. Beyond that, if we learn anything from that ordeal, it might help out one of us in the future. After watching that video for about the third or fourth time, another thought came to me. It might have been better if the officer retreated to his vehicle (not in it but to it). Giving himself some cover and distance. Although I still say that everyone will resort back to training when involved in a stressful situation. And that, it was not a natural reaction to tap, tilt, rack his firearm shows a lack of proper training. We did that routine until that heals of our hands were bruised from tapping the magazine. Hope I never have to be tested on it but I am very confident that if the situation arises, it will come instinctively to me.

Again, its easy to Monday morning quarterback any situation. Just happy he went home that night with a sore body as opposed to something much worse.
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Old February 19, 2007, 02:29 PM   #57
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Actually, most chefs are quite fond of their knives.
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Old February 19, 2007, 04:34 PM   #58
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IMO irresponsible for a police officer not to be versed in any kind of martial art, boxing, whatever. You don't need to be Chuck Norris as one poster so eloquently put it. But if you're a cop you should at least know what it's like to get hit in the head hard. It could save your life. There are a lot of people out there like those in the video who are faster, stronger, and there are some people who are also smarter, than you will be. And god forbid you have to face that person in anger and you do not have the resources to defeat them.

Better safe than sorry. Martial arts (H2H fighting skills for all purposes. Do judo!) plus regular police training equals well rounded and safer police officer.
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Old February 19, 2007, 06:33 PM   #59
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What did the cop do right?
He kept MOVING!
The bad thing he did was mostly only straight back,allowing the guy to only have to step forward.
Notice the guy had a harder time following him when he moved to the side.
side to side,angles work well especially with a larger opponent.
Also if you will note, Big Guys get tired faster,you dont see heavyweights bounce around like a lightweight for too long.
Course being shot didnt help lol.
Learning to break handholds is also very helpfull.
Big Guys usually make the mistake of just using their size alone to subdue others as you can see in the vid,the cop kept moving and the guy couldnt get a good grip on him.
The Big Guy as a boxer was just a plug with poor skills,maybe thats why he never got anywhere in the ring.
By the way im a pretty Big guy myself just not stupid.
And yes i have several years of Kara-Te and Judo with Boxing thrown in.
And of course many years of shooting skills lol.
My first instructor was a Green Beret who only stood 5'6" with 2 tours in Vietnam,he had several hand to hands behind him.
He taught me alot.
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