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Old August 10, 2006, 05:24 PM   #76
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Ha! First Steps... "see that button on your fancy german pistol... that's the magazine release. Nope, not the slide release, the button. No, now keep your finger off that, that's the trigger..."

Is that pretty much how it went down?

A JPFO member who carries a Walther of all things... Interesting.
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Old August 10, 2006, 06:05 PM   #77
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At least he called you "cupcake"!
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Old August 10, 2006, 06:06 PM   #78
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"Ha! First Steps... "see that button on your fancy german pistol... that's the magazine release. Nope, not the slide release, the button. No, now keep your finger off that, that's the trigger..."
Is that pretty much how it went down?
A JPFO member who carries a Walther of all things... Interesting."

Alright hotshot, you just made quite a few assumptions, none of which is right.

You assumed that I am a member of JPFO. I am not.

Judging by your suggesting me as a dichotomy for being a JPFO member and carrying a German gun, you seem to assume that I am Jewish. I am not.

I can only guess you assumed I was Jewish because you assumed I was a member of JPFO. Thus you assumed that only Jews can be members of JPFO. That is not the case.

From the JPFO website:

To answer a question we get frequently: You do NOT have to be Jewish to join!

Finally, you assumed I will be carrying the p99 because that was what I used to qualify. That may or may not be true.

To sum up, I do not belong to JPFO. I am German, by descent, but that has nothing to do with my German gun (actually, it wasn't made in Germany, I don't think). I am Christian, not Jewish. JPFO is open to anyone who supports their cause. I most likely will be carrying a Glock 22.

"First Steps isn't meant or designed to be a "CCW Course"."

When I signed up, they had it listed as their CCW course. When I took it, it was their first steps course. The course was ENTIRELY about carrying concealed. That leads me to believe that their first steps pistol course IS meant to be for CCW.
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Old August 10, 2006, 06:11 PM   #79
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Jeez, sorry... You were the one praising the JPFO and calling the NRA pro-gun-control.

I suspected you were not a descendent of Gideon anyway. Those fine folks tend to try to agressively change a situation they find distasteful, rather than whining endlessly with no action.

I like cupcakes
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Old August 10, 2006, 06:31 PM   #80
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Well 8bird, I'm not about to pile on here...but I would like to know why you also post as WoodsWally. That just doesn't seem right. Heck, it may even be against the rules.

OK, sorry...I guess I will pile on a bit; Any favorable word, or whatever kind of mealymouthed compliment you gave Gore, ...who was VP for one of the most anti 2nd Ammendment administrations ever,... goes against my grain. At least Bush is pro-gun.

Right WoodsWally?
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Old August 10, 2006, 06:34 PM   #81
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FIRST (Firearm Instruction, Responsibility and Safety Training) STEPS is the latest addition to the NRA's training programs for new shooters. It provides hands-on orientation to one specific rifle, pistol or shotgun model in as little as three hours, including a one-hour shooting session on a range.
Not "CCW", so now you have another NRA bone to pick at.

Also from the above site:


Since 1871, a major objective of the National Rifle Association has been to provide education and training in the safe and proper use of firearms.
Today, that objective is being fulfilled through the NRA Basic Firearm Training Program. There are 11 different courses in the program being taught throughout the nation by NRA Certified Instructors. NRA Instructors also teach the three-hour FIRST STEPS Orientation Program (rifle, pistol, and shotgun) to introduce new shooters to a particular firearm model.

Instructors provide an invaluable service in their communities by training hundreds of thousands of individuals annually. As firearm and shooting activities expand, and more Americans choose to exercise their right to carry a firearm, so too grows the need for these courses.

You can be the vital element in meeting this need by becoming an NRA Certified Instructor and conducting NRA Basic Firearm Training Courses. As an instructor, you can experience the personal satisfaction of teaching others the basics -- the knowledge, skills and attitudes that will lead to a lifetime of safe, enjoyable and successful involvement in firearm and shooting activities.

The NRA is looking for new instructors who enjoy working with people, want to share their firearm knowledge and skills with others, and are willing to make a commitment to teach NRA training courses in their communities.

The types of courses and instructor ratings available are:


NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
NRA Assistant Pistol Instructor
NRA Apprentice Pistol Instructor

NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Assistant Rifle Instructor
NRA Apprentice Rifle Instructor

NRA Certified Shotgun Instructor
NRA Assistant Shotgun Instructor
NRA Apprentice Shotgun Instructor

NRA-NMLRA Certified Muzzleloading Pistol Instructor
NRA-NMLRA Assistant Muzzleloading Pistol Instructor

NRA-NMLRA Certified Muzzleloading Rifle Instructor
NRA-NMLRA Assistant Muzzleloading Rifle Instructor

NRA-NMLRA Certified Muzzleloading Shotgun Instructor
NRA-NMLRA Assistant Muzzleloading Shotgun Instructor

NRA Certified Personal Protection Instructor

NRA Certified Home Firearm Safety Instructor

NRA Certified Reloading Instructor

NRA Certified Reloading Instructor

NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer Instructor

To qualify as an NRA instructor, you must:

Possess and demonstrate a solid background in firearm safety and shooting skills acquired through previous firearm training (such as completion of an NRA Basic Firearm Training Course) and/or previous shooting experience.
Successfully complete the appropriate NRA instructor examination. Certified—90% or higher. Assistant—85% or higher. Apprentice—85% or higher
Satisfactorily complete an NRA Instructor Training Course for the area of specialization you wish to teach (e.g., NRA Basic Shotgun Course), and receive the endorsement of the NRA Training Counselor conducting your training.
Submit your application with appropriate certification fee. Membership in the National Rifle Association is strongly recommended.
Certified Ratings are available to individuals who wish to be fully qualified to conduct basic courses (21 years of age or older).

Assistant Ratings are available to individuals who wish to assist certified instructors in order to gain the knowledge and experience needed to become a certified instructor (18 years of age or older).

Apprentice Ratings are available to young people who wish to understudy a certified instructor in preparation for more advanced ratings. The apprentice instructor will be chosen by an NRA Certified Instructor from select individuals. These individuals must be of the emotional maturity necessary to handle such a position. In addition, they must have attended and successfully completed an NRA Basic Firearm Training Course in their chosen area of specialization (13-17 years of age).

Your responsibilities as an NRA Certified Instructor will include:

Conducting NRA Basic Courses in accordance with policies and procedures outlined by NRA
Upholding the quality and integrity of national firearm safety and training standards established by NRA
Promoting firearm safety and the shooting sports
Reporting training data to NRA
Knowing how to shoot is an important requirement for NRA instructors, but you will also need to know how to teach others to shoot. NRA Instructor Training Courses help you develop the additional knowledge, skills and techniques needed to organize and teach courses in the NRA Basic Firearm Training Program.
Instructor training courses are conducted by NRA Training Counselors. Training Counselors are active and experienced instructors who have been appointed by NRA to train other (new) instructors. You may request a list of training counselors in your geographic area by contacting the NRA Training Department at 703-267-1430.

How you benefit by becoming an NRA Instructor:

NRA Certified Instructors qualify to take the NRA Basic Range Safety Officer Course as a validation course. The Basic Range Safety Officer validation course is offered and taken as part of the Home Study Program.
You will soon qualify to become a Training Counselor. In this position, you have the responsibility of teaching (new) NRA Instructors.
Once you receive your certificate (suitable for framing) from NRA, you will receive your identification card. You will also receive a free subscription of the NRA Shooting Education Update, a newsletter published periodically for all NRA Trainers.
Program information, training schedules, book reviews, material updates and more are provided. Additionally, the Update provides an open forum for the exchange of information and ideas on firearm safety and marksmanship education.
You become an even more valuable resource for your community. NRA Certified Instructors are leaders who provide a very important service. Because of your dedication to the shooting sports, you are providing a chance for others to enjoy the same benefits of firearm ownership that you have enjoyed in the past.
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Old August 10, 2006, 06:58 PM   #82
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Here is a link to the virginia stat police website...

Technically, this course appears to satisfy the "proof of competence" in VA for ccw. However, it's the most rudimentary of all the NRA courses.
NRA does not refer to it as ccw...
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Old August 10, 2006, 07:06 PM   #83
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You thought you were going to get CCW instruction, but took a gun with you that you don't intend to carry?

I'm confused about so many things in this conversation I don't know where to start...
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Old August 10, 2006, 07:18 PM   #84
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the course I took was called FIRST Steps and Concealed Firearms Training, or something to that effect (I don't have the certificate with me). We didn't have to bring our own pistols nor did we have to take any tests. The instructor was NRA certified, but I don't think the class was strictly based on NRA directives alone. We also got a hefty book out of it, with a lot of legality discussion. The beginning actually covered a good deal of tactics for avoidance, et c. I am going for his intensive one-day intermediate training class at their private range near PKD off 95. Ought to be pretty fun.
He did state at the beginning of the lecture that he was required to offer the live fire training, though it was not necessary to take part.

v8- I know how you feel regarding what you should/could have done/do, but in the end water doesn't go from the sink back into the spigot. You're doing what you think is right, though a POLITE (and I emphasize POLITE) letter to the above-mentioned higher-ups would probably do some good for noobs taking the class down the road. Snail mail would be preferable to email because emails just get lost and or filtered out by spamblockers.
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Old August 10, 2006, 07:57 PM   #85
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I think he is in a state where any basic course is an acceptable prerequisite for a CCW. I recently relocated to Florida, and here a hunter safety course is all you need to apply for a license.

I'm going to deduce, based on the description of events and the course name, that he wanted a simple course to pass in order to be able to apply for his license, and that the operators of the course were touting it as a CCW course, and then added their own spin into the basic NRA guidelines.

Therefore, until he says otherwise, I don't think he was thinking "Ooh, the ultra-basic-newbie-pistol course, I will take this as preparation for my CCW!", I think he was thinking "A course I can take which will let me get my CCW, awesomesauce."
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Old August 10, 2006, 10:28 PM   #86
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A few things...

Being an NRA certified instructor doesn't mean you're an NRA employee. While there may be NRA certified instructors that ARE NRA employees, that is by far the exception. The fact that the class took place at the NRA is, similarly, not evidence that the instructors were NRA employees.

An NRA CI can lose his certification if it can be shown that he deviated from the syllabus set forth by the NRA course material or otherwise failed to teach the course in the approved manner. If you feel that the instructor departed from the material set forth in the course materials then you should bring it to the attention of the NRA training department.

NRA CIs are required to renew their certification (which involves paying a small fee) every three years or so. The rules state that an NRA CI must teach a certain number of courses in order to be elegible for renewal, but that rule is not strictly enforced.

There is an NRA CCW course, but it is very new--a recent development.

And lastly, to respond to the comment that the NRA is pro gun control: There is a difference between compromise and endorsement. Even the rabidly anti-gun Rebecca Peters of IANSA is willing to allow gun owners to retain some firearms--does that compromise make her pro-gun? Hardly.

You're free to disagree with the NRA, I do in many respects. I think it's great that you want them to change--I do too, in many ways. But it's silly to say the NRA is pro-gun control--just as silly as it is to say that Rebecca Peters is pro-gun. Both are willing to compromise to achieve their goals, that is a far cry from either of them endorsing the other's agenda.
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
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Old August 10, 2006, 10:33 PM   #87
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There is an NRA CCW course, but it is very new--a recent development.
The finally have it (mostly) complete. It is called Personal Protection Outside the Home.

This course has been 'in the works' since 1996.

Defensive Training Concepts, Inc.
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Old August 11, 2006, 12:13 AM   #88
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Scrotal fortitude???


Need I say more?

Closed, with apologies to those who tried to keep this on a civil course
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

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