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Old March 12, 2006, 07:28 PM   #1
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+p Rant

Why is that people go out and buy a revolver or any gun and the first thing they post on here wanting to shoot +p? I just don't get it why can't they be satisfied with just standard loads. Is it just the hype that bigger is better or that no one seems satisfied with what they bought after they get it.Or is it our fault on this forum, you listen to some if you don't carry at least a .44 or .45 you are in fear of your life. Just had to get this off my chest
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Old March 12, 2006, 07:35 PM   #2
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Why are you so worried about what others shoot? :P If you don't want to shoot +P then don't.
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Old March 12, 2006, 08:10 PM   #3
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I don't think it's a question of whether Russ wants to shoot +P, but why someone would buy a firearm and then think about what cartridge it takes. They didn't pull it out of the grab bag or got it from the lost and found bin. If they wanted to shoot +p or hotter, than maybe they should have bought a gun designed for it. If i get +P++++ ammo for my 22 rimfire, can I take moose with it?
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Old March 12, 2006, 08:18 PM   #4
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Is a lot easier to make a big gun shoot like a little one than it is to get a little one to shoot like a big one. Is it better to use a 25HP outboard red lined to go 30knots, or a 50hp loafing along at 2/3 power with plenty more in reserve?
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Old March 12, 2006, 08:25 PM   #5
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I personally think its stupid to buy a gun, intending to shoot +P, without knowing if the gun is capable of shooting +P.

There is nothing wrong about wanting a gun capable of shooting +P.
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Old March 12, 2006, 10:10 PM   #6
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I find it a little dissapointing

Since the need for +p loads has all but dissappeared

The better hollowpoints now expand and penetrate reliably in even shorter barreled pistols

But a lot of people still base their ammo choices on 15 year old articles in gun rags
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Old March 12, 2006, 10:17 PM   #7
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umm, the side of my revolver says ".38 S&W SPL. +P"

Why would I carry something weaker than what it's rated for?
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Old March 12, 2006, 10:22 PM   #8
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+P? Not in my CHL pistol


I'm something of a Masaad Ayoob type: I wonder what some prosector would say about +P ammo after I used it in a self-defense shooting.
In my legally concealed Beretta 92FS I use Winchester White Box 147 HP's from Wal-Mart. Not the local sporting goods store, Wal-Mart. And I keep a reciept for it in my ammo box.
This round (147 HP) was deemed satisfactory by the San Diego PD after extensive reviews from thier own departmental shootings. Non +P 147 grain HP's would reliably penetrate and expand 13 inches of ordinance geletin. Thier shootings confirmed a satisfactory degree of effectiveness at stopping fights. Now for .38 Sp., I might consider +P.
To each his own. It's good to live in a free country, but it could be freer; Wal-Mart recently demanded photo I.D. when I purchased ammo! Sheesh

Larry C.

PS: All my guns can tolerate +P, although it obviously does accelerate wear.
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Old March 12, 2006, 10:29 PM   #9
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I understand the original question. I also wonder why if some people think that 9mm is not adequate then why did they buy it to begin with or why not sell theirs and get a 357 Sig (or even a 38 Super) if they want more velocity out of the same bullet. I can't say that I much care either way but the thought has occurred to me. Now when you get something like 32, 380, or 45 +P I can see that as an augmentation where there is not a lot of other choice in the matter. But 9mm +P does not make a lot of sense to me as a 357 Sig IS a 9mm ++p++. I know the 357 Sig has not been around all that long but I would have thought it would have killed the 9mm +p by now. The 38 Super should have as well. Plus one for to each his own.
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Old March 12, 2006, 10:58 PM   #10
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Factory +P is a joke. I don't know why anyone would be concerned about using it. A 125 at 900 FPS? Big whoop. You could probably get close to that with a slingshot.
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Old March 13, 2006, 05:56 AM   #11
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Yeah, baby! A brace of big-bores

if you don't carry at least a .44 or .45 you are in fear of your life.
Finally!! I have gotten through to one

But, it is not a question of choosing to carry a .44 OR a .45.
I carry a .44 as primary AND a .45 as BUG And a Defender (oh yeah, and a Kt.32 and a Kershaw Ken Onion and S&W SWAT and S&W Military Boot and my Surefire and my 5cell Maglight) Well, you get the picture. "just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me" LOL

+P might or might not be worth it. IN really short or light guns the detractors or costs might very well outweigh the benefits.
I stoke the .45 with +ps and the magnum gets loaded with well, not much point in a +p 44.

The .38 is a wimpy round in standard pressure. But drive a 125 Gr. +p+ and you got yourself a stopper equal to the 9-124, which is to say, "mediocre"

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Old March 13, 2006, 07:15 AM   #12
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Here we go again. It seem to me that if you want to shoot +P ammo in your .38 Spl., go right ahead. If you want to shoot standard ammo, go right ahead. If you choose to carry a .45, g. r. a. Same for a .44 Mag.
The bottom (only) line is that accuracy is the name of the game. It's not what, but where.
Before I retired, we used to teach all new officers that there is a fairly simple way to double the effective stopping power of the "puny" .38 load we were issued for duty carry. Pull the trigger again. No one in their roght mind is going to trust ANY round enough to shoot once and quit.
Guys, you simply have to keep firing till the threat is ended. Due to the fact that I am sitting here, I am reasonably certain that I know what I am talking about. ("nuff said about that) So, +p or not, practice with what you carry. The old saying "practice the way you fight, fight the way you practice" is still very true.
Sorry for the half-assed lecture, but I felt that I had to do it.
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Old March 13, 2006, 09:32 AM   #13
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There aren't that many good non +P defense loads out there. The one I know of off the top of my head is rather weak according to the tests I've seen. It seems all new development (and performance testing afterwards) goes towards +P ammo. In 38special, the difference between regular and +P is pretty small, I don't worry about it.

Corbon had what was supposed to be a good non +P load a few years ago, but they redesigned it into a +P round.

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Old March 13, 2006, 10:57 AM   #14
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good post yankee, I suppose some people will never learn, it's not what you shoot but how/where you shoot. But still, you tell the average gun enthusiast that there's a catagory of bullet that goes just a little faster, hits a little harder, may be a little more accurate (and costs a little more, that's the important one) and you'll have yuppies lining the streets for you 'superior' product. I kinda wish I'd though of such a thing, I'm sure somebody's makin a fortune with the whole +p market!

And now that i've said, marvel at my pretty +p+ 38 spls...supposedly secret svc bullets (haha, prob not but the yarn he spun me was a good listen so...)

PS: why would anyone get a 38 spl +p gun instead of a 357??? why oh why? and don't give me any crap about saving 20 bux over the other either...not worth it.
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Old March 13, 2006, 11:32 AM   #15
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"...something of a Masaad Ayoob type..."


I'm something of a Masaad Ayoob type: I wonder what some prosector would say about +P ammo after I used it in a self-defense shooting.
Check out what his preferred round is for the 9mm and you might be surpirsed to learn it is most likely a +P.

There is no reason to fear using a +P from a civil or legal stance. Simply point to the largest LEO agency in the USA, the New York City PD. They use the 124 grain Gold Dot 9mm +P. Plenty of departments have gone to the +P 9mm in one weight/composition or another.

Things I would avoid.

Home Loads by myself or a somebody else for defense.

Anything labelled EXTREME, like that Extreme Shock (read HYPE) garbage.

Something like a Black Talon ONLY because it was discontinued. Having a box of BTs would indicate the current ammo was not enough for you and you had to go and specially buy a discontinued round for its added lethality (entirely BS but a possiblilty).

There are plenty of valid reasons for asking if a gun wil take +P. I can think of two in my stable right away.

I inherited a S&W Model 60 Chief's Special. It did not state +P but I knew plenty of people who carried it. I would think asking around would be perfectly acceptable.

I also picked up a used Firestar M93 9mm. This gun is built like a tank, all steel and durable as hell. It was not marked +P but I would imagine it could handle it. Asking around, of the many people who have had and used Firestars, I have learned of not one problem using +Ps. The company is also gone so it is not like I can call them!
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Old March 13, 2006, 11:52 AM   #16
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If you don't want +P no one is gona make you use it, there are plently of rounds out there that are not to chose from, maybe not always on the shelf at your favorite store but then half those places don't stock much of anything anymore thanks to mailorder and the internet.

So far as the proliferation of +p rounds, I'm of the opinion that a few makers are using this designation to cover their butts as as otehrs have mentioned a lot of the loads are probibly boarder line or within spec as otehr makers have loads that are equivilent and in spec, however from an ammo maker's persepctive it's easier to stamp +p then a disclosure to only use a steady diet of the round only in modern, well built guns

I understand the accelerated wear thing, however it's got to be specific to the gun not a general statement, in a kel-tec would I shoot +p, heck no, in a stainless frame sig 226 I really don't think you are doing much damage if you maintian the gun
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Old March 13, 2006, 11:54 AM   #17
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Why not use +p

How about because a standard pressure loading is more controllable

A lot of cops carry target wadcutters in their J-frames because they can empty the weapon faster and more accurately than when it is loaded with +p ammo. And those wadcutters actually perform almost as good as the better +p loads....better if you value hitting the target quickly, accurately and repeatedly

Kudos to them, since they actually practice with their carry load....all the time

I see lots of people that carry +p or +p+ but they practice with the cheapest wimpiest target ammo they can find.( and they call it training)

Heaven help them when they suddenly need to defend themselves and their weapon of choice is suddenly much harder to control

The better performing loads in the major calibers are most all standard pressure. While there are +p loads that do just as good....why bother going to +p for the same performance

By sticking to RA9T and RA45T for carry, I can easily practice with the same type of FMJ and see the same POI as my carry load

All without breaking the bank (or my pistol)

38 spcl is the one loading where +p is still required to get good expansion/penetration in some loads

10 - 15 years ago bullet design was not all that order to get good expansion and penetration many/most loads relied upon increased velocity to perform....especially from short barrels

Currently the only rounds that still need to be +p to function are the "boutique" rounds like EFMJ and Powerball

That and some of the lighter bullets....if you don't have the mass then you need the velocity

Times have changed and progress has been made

Why not take advantage of it?

(Besides ...I have seen a fair amount of testing that showed several brands of +p ammo actually tested out to lower pressure and velocity than standard loads..but at higher prices)
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Old March 13, 2006, 11:41 PM   #18
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I'll carry +P all day long. Why? Because I can. Because a HP with a +P loading will perform better than the same bullet without it. Because it offends people who have pistol envy. No one asks someone with an AR in their home why do they have to use that fragmenting military ammo, why can't they just be happy with some PMC from Walmart? If you can't handle hotter loads, by all means, don't use them, but for the rest of us:Maximize your effectiveness, and any advantage you can get, and with it your chance of staying alive. I'll worry about the prosector later.
Someone just hit me with a snow ball; and I can see the guy who threw it.--Phil Simms, AFC Divisional Playoff, January 19, 2002, Pats/Raiders (The infamous "tuck rule" game)
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Old March 13, 2006, 11:48 PM   #19
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Why does this bother you ?

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
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Old March 14, 2006, 12:07 AM   #20
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As long as they are shooting let them shoot whatever they want. Personally I could care less if you're shooting +P+++ extreme magnum deathray rounds as long as you can hit what you're shooting at and you're not shooting at me.
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Old March 14, 2006, 12:14 AM   #21
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I have a Walther P-38 ... my gunsmith told me not to shoot +P in it ... only standard 9mm rounds ... It has nothing to do with being a hot shot, by using a +P round ... it might have more to do with there being a lot of gun frames out there that were never designed for +P, or higher. +P might be the standard for today's gun frames ... I suspect if there were no older frames there would be no +P designation. I wonder why the ammunition makers did not designate the old standard lot -P, rather than introduce the +p designation for the newer gun frames.

One reason for buying a gun and asking if it can shoot +P is to practice with standard, but load it with +P, or +P+ for carry. S&W for my 3913 TSW indicates it to handle +P, but not +P+. I practice with standard, but load my magazines with +P after that.

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Old March 14, 2006, 01:29 AM   #22
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I go the opposite way. My CCW is an SP101 .357mag but i choose to go smaller and shoot .38spcl in it. If anyone thinks that puts me in more danger because I choose to use a load with a little less bang I ask them to be on the receiving end of a .38 and then say that.
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Old March 14, 2006, 05:47 AM   #23
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Many people choose 38sp over 357 mag because they simply can't adequately control a 357 mag.

There are a number of good standard pressure rounds for SD. 45 Colt, 44 Special, 357 magnum, 41 magnum, 44 magnum, 45 acp, 10mm, etc.
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Old March 14, 2006, 11:28 AM   #24
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"Maximize your effectiveness"

Which is NOT a given simply by buying/using +p ammo

Some +P loads fragment and don't penetrate enough

Some are simply not as effective as a good standard pressure load because they are relying too much on velocity nad not enough on bullet design.

And some are simply not that "hot"

More style than substance in many cases...but sells ammo

I am curious how many people carry 9mm +p or +P+ but don't think the extra 100 fps in standard pressure .357 sig is a worthwhile
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Old March 14, 2006, 12:34 PM   #25
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I'm something of a Masaad Ayoob type: I wonder what some prosector would say about +P ammo after I used it in a self-defense shooting.
If the only thing a prosecutor has to hold against you in a self-defense shooting, is the fact that you used p+ ammo, you're probably on pretty solid ground. Or so it would seem to me anyway.

On the other hand, if the rest of your story looks shakey, I can see where that might be another nail to drive in.
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